Hey, I think the Pygmy must be having a laugh. From Autosport (edited); Only he could claim that $250MM isn't a "fortune"!...... Bless him! Cheers, Ian http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103817
Of all professional sports, the NFL has a system of revenue sharing that allows all member teams to be competitive. A small market team like Green Bay, Wisconsin has equal footing with those from major metropolitan areas. Wonder if something comparable could work for F1?
No. Manufactures trying to engineer the most advanced technology /// Picking kids coming out of college Apple /// Oranges Would only be a similar situation if NFL teams could only draft players that grew up in their city/market. It's always been crazy to me how people get such die hard pride rooting for their cities team when all the players were just paid to be brought in from somewhere else.
Ferrari, Red Bull, budgets around $450 million annually? Without salaries. $250 million with salaries is on the low end, even for a backmarker team. $300 million without salaries would likely equate things. And isn't this what Mosley tried to do?
I don't think so - But could be mistaken of course.... The #'s I've seen suggest the big boys are at ~$150MM-$200MM + driver salaries. Cheers, Ian
Can not be that low for SF and RB (see below). And when the debate was raging with Mosley, if I remember correctly, and I don't all of the time, he backed off of the $40 million and his final numbers were closer to $120 million euros. From the internet: "In 2003, Ferrari's domination of F1 was brought to a halt at the first race, the Australian Grand Prix, where for the first time in 3 years, there was no Ferrari driver on the podium. Rivals McLaren had an early lead in the championship, but Ferrari closed the gap by the Canadian Grand Prix. The drivers' championship went down to the last race, the Japanese Grand Prix, between Kimi Räikkönen (McLaren) and Michael Schumacher; Schumacher won the championship by two points, surpassing Fangio's record. In 2003, F1 magazine reported that Ferrari's budget was $443,800,000.[15]" And I do not know if that is USDs or Euros. Nevertheless, consider all of the travel expenses, all of the non-driver salaries, the add the cost of production, the cost of ongoing development, for two race cars plus all the spare parts. Then add the cost of those hospitality "trailers", and you would double the $150 million USD. So that $443+ million sounds most accurate.
Hello, half a Billion is about right for the top teams. Years ago not taking inflation into account. Toyota 0r Honda (cant remember now)spent almost 3/4 Billion to get back into F1 and that was years ago money(forgot when) Read where they where not sure of what cly configurement was best so they built them all, flat 12 vee 12 vee8 vee 10 even a W8 just for testing. Thats serious money! Heres a link for 2008 budgets http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/22/toyota-has-biggest-f1-budget-4456m/ [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxTBfU9mIfg[/ame]
In 2003 in-season testing was allowed and for teams like Ferrari and McLaren, their test outfits rivaled the actual race teams in size and ran almost continuously. Of that US 450 million figure, I would not be surprised if upwards of a third of it was spent supporting the test team.
They should just restrict fuel amount and let teams innovate all they want; that's the allure of F1. If they want to convert F1 into an open-wheel Nascar, they'll kill it IMO.
Hello, one small example that we all can relate to is the cost of brake rotors and pads. On a top F1 team, rotors/pads can cost up and over $4,000.00 ea. One car uses 4 rotors ($16,000.00) every session for testing, practice, qualifieing, and of course the race. So it wouldnt be uncommon to use 4-5 sets for a weekend $64,000.00 to $80,000.00 Whew! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KKahHDKmZQ http://www.tribology-abc.com/abc/formula1c.htm http://www.tribology-abc.com/abc/formula1c.htm Despite the fairly simple system (mostly because the regulations do not allow many other variations), the carbon fibre elements make the brakes a highly expensive part of a Formula One car. Both the pads and the discs are manufactures from the best carbon fibre available (long chain carbon, as in carbon fibre). In fact it can take up to 5 months to produce a single brake disk. The first stage in making a disc is to heat white polyacrylo nitrile (PAN) fibres until they turn black. This makes them pre-oxidised, and are arranged in layers similar to felt. They are then cut into shape and carbonised to obtain very pure carbon fibres. Next, they undergo two densification heat cycles at around 1000°C. These stages last hundreds of hours, during which a hydrocarbon-rich gas in injected into the oven or furnace. This helps the layers of felt-like material to fuse together and form a solid material. The finished disc is then machined to size ready to install onto the car. http://www.f1technical.net/features/2
Super hard to make this work, nigh impossible. For one thing, the 250mm is outrageously low. I don't think the big teams would be able to spend that LITTLE. They wouldn't know how to start. Second, this still vastly favors the big teams that have other manufacturing they can lean on, in-house wind tunnels where they can cheat, their own CFD/compute farms, etc. The little teams, the ones that need the restriction on budget so they can be competitive, have to outsource all this stuff so they can't cheat. Even with the RRA gentleman's agreement, teams were cheating.
Good post, why have a budget cap at all? F1 is supposed to be the the top tier of motorsport, instead they may as well just used standard engines, standard everything and go like the A1 was, all in the name of cost.
We'll get back to the first part, but yeah, IIRC, he eventually "agreed" that 120MM euros was a good number..... We've gotta agree on denomination though! [120MM euro = $150MM btw - Can we work in USD please?..... ] From the internet: AFAIK, "hospitality" is a totally different can of worms - Those "trailers" (& staff etc) are nothing to do with any "Bernie cap". Yep - Years back..... Exactly! - Even more so though - Back then they were running *two* completely independent test teams in addition to the race team. Call it half the 3/4 billion for the Japanese and about the same for Ferrari - Lose that, and they're spending ~$250MM back in 2003. Further, back then, engines didn't need to do 5 races and 'boxes 7 - They were using 10's, if not hundreds of 'em per year (Testing eats **** too......) Make 'em last, ban testing, and again budgets come down. We may not like it, but they're not spending anywhere close to what they were back in 2003. Cheers, Ian
They could set a budget cap as being a median between what Marussia/HRT spent vs. the big others. A budget cap is just what Honda wants to come back, this I have no doubt. Doubled-edged sword though really..
Nobody ever said it would be easy....... As I've said before, getting these guys to agree on the color of the sky is difficult. Something like this, as already noted, nigh on impossible. They could try, and a median may even make a little sense (so it won't happen! ). Playing devils advocate, if I'm (eg) the Cans, why should HRT's lack of money hurt my efforts? I dunno - *If* they were to return they'd immediately become one of the biggest spenders out there - They would try (again) to buy the titles..... I don't see 'em returning unless it's solely as an engine supplier. Cheers, Ian
Here we go again. There are plenty of other formulas available for those without the wherewithal. F1 has the reputation it has because of the tradition of providing the best and fastest, damn all the cost. Where HRT and the other ankle biters get off thinking they can cash in on that is beyond me. Either the costs will escalate to previous levels and all this will have been pointless or the sport will become (even more of) a farce. You can't have your golden goose and eat it too.
+1 No doubt. One "idea" (may have even been mine!) is you've gotta "graduate" into F1. While it wasn't mandated, that's exactly what Eddie J did back in the day; Started out in F3, moved to (actually, added) a GP2 team and eventually became a *constructor* in F1. Love him or hate him, he did make a success of (and *many* $ from) the journey. One problem there is the Pygmy needs (for the TV contracts) 20+ cars on the grid. Push the ankle biters out and he has a big problem - The reason he bailed out Stoddart way back and the minnows got a few million (not mandated by the Concorde) recently. I don't think we'll see early 2000's spending levels again - Certainly not in the short term. Seems they're all quite happy with the status quo right now - The only folk *****ing about no testing are the fans - And most of them don't really care as long as the racing is close and there's a little (DRS aided ) overtaking...... As long as they remain the quickest things round a road course, does it matter if there's a budget cap? Cheers, Ian
The tail wags the dog. Yes f1 is something that in some way should be earned. But dear Bernie puts a price tag on everything. Those involved in the sport are happy with their cut and don't give a rat's azz about the fans. I don't see that as a sustainable business plan and just hope that when the pyramid collapses there'll be enough to rebuild with. Till then let Nero play on.
Ian, I remember reading that both Red Bull and Ferrari spent over $400 million, let's say dollars, in 2011. Keep in mind in nearly 10 years, since 2003, inflation inflation inflation. And you consider the reality of the Ferrari mentality, they are spending whatever it takes to improve their car to save face.
