It's more like 70% the car. I would say when Alonso won his WCs in the Renault - it was not the best car, yet he still won. Fisi's driving was a little more representative of the Renault's performance, IMO.
+1, on both Kimi and Dennis the Menace and Alonsohole Unfairnando. Anyone can win in the best car, but you pointed out it is really who can win in the 2nd best car, Massa did that last year and Kimi the year before. Alonso can only seem to win when he has the best car.
Yes Ron buddy, you might need more morphine Actually, Alonso won in a Renault in 2003, that car was even more of a secondary car than Kimi's McLaren. JB was the top scoring driver in the second half of 2006, including a maiden GP win, and no one would consider his Honda to be anything but a midfield runner. Where does he stand? If your criteria for an impressive driver is his performance in second-rate machinery, then your Golden Boy Massa ought to be dropping well down in the list. Outside of the Ferrari, he was not even good enough to be labelled a midfielder. (Boy, I am glad you're back. I've been biting my tongue about Massa for months )
Nonsense. Fernando won in 2003 in a second-rate Renault. And Massa, outside of the Ferrari, looks exactly like the backmarker he is. If there is any driver out there who is being enormously flattered by his machinery, it is Massa.
I disagree. IMHO, FA had a near perfect car with Renault. I think Fisi's WDC standings this year reflect more closely his abilities. Because the '05, '06 Renault was so perfect the CAR carried Fisi up to 5th in '05 and 4th in '06 in the WDC. FA has yet to show what he can do in a secondary car. However, we have seen what he can do with a near perfect car that, for one race, is performing like a secondary car...*ahem*, Canada. I'll consider FA more seriously in the, "best driver in F1 today category", as soon as FA starts being able to do what Kimi can do in a secondary car.
The harassment and grief you endured for your undying loyalty to Massa, and now you've seen the light and choose Kimi. You Da Man.
I agree with you that Alonso had a bulletproof car in 05 and 06 but there were times when he showed just how talented he was. The car can only do so much as was shown with Fisi. Fisi's skills have fallen off lately but early in his career he always outperformed his teammate up until Alonso came on board. Fisi would often qualify well in the Renault (05 & 06) and then either drop down in the race due to a mistake or a problem with his car. This year, Renault is off the pace. They are improving and HK is beating Fisi badly now. I too, believe Alonso is the best driver in F1 today. He will do anything to win(even if you do not agree with his actions) and he has proven to be very competitive in every car he has driven(even in the Minardi he had some good qualifying sessions). He wants to win at all costs. I believe winning is what defines who the best drivers are whether or not that is truly fair.
until last weekend (and possibly even after too) Massa had led more laps this season than any other driver. i think hes still improving too, whereas KR has peaked (albeit at a top level) Alonshole good driver for sure, but i wonder how much of his performance is his skill with setup rather than pure driver skills. Hamilton - simply fabulous rookie performance, but then hes won at EVERY single level hes tried at. not sure what order id list the 4 of them though. best of the rest, Heidfeld, Button (in a decent car i think he would be a WDC contender) Rosberg (def one to watch)
I'm not trying to trash Massa because I think he's good, but I really feel Kimi is the better driver. If you look at their performances since the mid point of the season (British GP) Kimi has outscored Massa 42 to 30. And in the 10 races where neither driver had a DNF Kimi finished ahead of Massa 6 times to 4. Now that he is settled in the team I bet that gap just continues to grow.
The question of this thread was "who is the best driver in today's F1"............ability to set up a car is a huge factor in how good a driver is overall. Just ask triple-WC Niki Lauda.............I'm sure he'd agree.
Whoa, that settles it then: 4 pages of thread and not one person who puts Massa at the top. I'm proud of my fellow FChatters...
Ted, if there was no Stephneygate, and McLaren was still the WCC, they would win because their car was superior to that of all participants. The Ferrari is a second place car today, and both Ferrari drivers including and especially Massa have won races despite the F2007's inconsistent characteristics. So Massa has shown this year what he can do in second rate car. I won't agree that the 2007 Ferrari is as good as the 2007 McLaren, its not. It is slightly better than the BMW, a third rate car. For now.
The Ferrari is every bit as good as the McLaren. The differences are so minute that it comes down to a particular track to put one in front of the other. All that Massa has shown this year is how he can screw up five times in a top of the line car. Something MS would not have done.
Best Qualifier: Trulli --> Webber --> Massa --> Kimi --> Alonso. Kimi is faster than Massa but makes more mistakes in qualifying Best Overtaker: Hamilton --> Alonso --> Kimi Best Racer: Alonso --> Hamilton --> Kimi Fastest driver in a good car: Kimi --> Hamilton --> Alonso Fastest driver in a bad car: Kimi --> Heidfeld --> Alonso Fastst over a race distance: Alonso --> Kimi Best driver to perform under pressure: Alonso --> Kimi Overall: Best driver Alonso followed by Kimi
Agreed. Although to be honest, if the Ferrari team had a better season, Kimi could be doing much better than he is. McLaren has simply been faster most of the time, even Michael probably couldn't have won this season (with a slower car). Hamilton would not look nearly so wonderful if he had debuted in a Toyota instead of McLaren, or if he had not benefitted from the setup advice of Alonso and a suddenly revitalized McLaren, which was rubbish last season as you guys recall. But worse case, LH is easily #3, who knows what he can pull off by next season (assuming McLaren doesn't have another off year like the ones prior to this year).
1) Alonso 2) Kimi 3) Webber (this guy has been making rolling dog turds relevant for like 4 years, also the best qualifier in F1)
That's right. The points difference between Ferrari and Mclaren in the constructors championship would be a lot closer if the Ferrari was more reliable. Fernando finished every race in the points and Hamilton finished all but one race in the points. Also the F2007 was the faster car at the Nurburgring, they locked out the front row, Ferrari would have won there had it not been for Raikkonen's electrical failure and Massa's lack of skill in the rain.
Kimi slide past the pits on the first lap.. thats what costed him in the win in the first place. Why look past the facts of massas tires severely vibrating? Go back and watch again.. he PULLED AWAY during the first rain.
considering how highly everyone rates alonso, im suprised that hamilton isnt mentioned more. with hardly any experience, he has managed to push (and beat) alonso on so many occasions, certainly more than fisichella (himself highly rated) did when FA was at renault. i think that speaks volumes.
LH > FA > FM > KR or get Rossi for them cause FM has been the most fast casue FA has been the very AllRoundDriver cause Raikonen is overEstimated (he looks the coolest though)
