My maintenance guys at Ferrari of San Francisco (Mill Valley) Ca use 20W-50 weight. I stay with the weight, BUT, use Castrol GTX 20W-50. Never ever had an issue with oil transfer to the upper section on total cold start after three months of sitting. No smoke!! If Ferrari maintenance (Factory) utilizes 20W-50, I use 20W-50. They recommend this weight, BUT, not synthetic for our older cars. 2 cents Ciao, Dwight 75 #10564
I have been using castrol 20/50 for 15 years changed every 6 months. Have you looked at your camshafts lately..... Image Unavailable, Please Login
Soooo, what are you saying Robert? Castrol GTX is crap? 15 years on the same oil lends credence that you were doing something very correct. Dwight
Dwight and all, Im not saying that but everyone I talked to about my camshaft said so. Plus I only drove 20K miles in 15 years and about 10 years ago and 7500 miles the camshaft was perfect. 3 ferrari techs said they thought it was the zinc issue. in the FCA prancing horse #172 has a similar pic of a damaged cam. The cam people ive talked to recommended brad penn #1, redline, or joe gibbs. The FCA tech guy says he uses Mobil one 15/50. I am leaning towards redline with their zddp supplement. All I know is I cant afford a meltdown because of oil that is changing to crap. I am still confused, pissed and exasperated http://www.zddplus.com/ http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=136004973#post136004973 Rob
All you have to do is look and this is all over the place. http://www.netbug.net/blogmichael/?p=49 http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e28-m5-discussion/112005-e28s-m5-231-wrenching-time-engine-rebuild-page-5-a-2.html http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2010/11/tribology
yes to my knowledge. I cleaned them and put zinc reassembly lube on each one as I put it back i noticed this one had the pitting. I will double check when i am out there but I a pretty sure it was the only one. The shim looked fine but some other shims were showing signs of wear. Sent my camshaft off. Will report back what i hear.
they can tell you if it's a lubrication or hardness issue on the ramps and lobe. I bet they might have a suggestion for oil usage given HOW - WHERE - HOW LONG....all the good stuff of your driving practices.,.
I am still leaning towards the redline 10/40 but was reading some ads about Amsoil, since it is about the same cost. I was curious if any of you had used that brand. All I know id that they use different base stocks.... Rob still on the fence!
You are worrying too much about a non-issue. Put any name brand oil of the proper weight in the engine; it will be fine. Ferrari shops use different brands of oil depending on what they get the best deal on; they do not all use the same oil - either by brand OR weight. Don't worry about it.
But what is the proper weight reline told me that their 10/40 has more film strength than my 20/50 this is from Redline If the seals and gaskets are in good condition, there shouldnt be any issue with leaks when using our oil. We design it with similar seal swell, seal characteristics to a petroleum oil. In the past seal compatibility has been an issue with some synthetics with insufficient seal swell. An engine with worn or hardened seals can start to weep when switching to a synthetic, a petroleum can build a layer that helps the compromised seal or gasket to seal. If this should occur, then the bad seal or gasket can be replaced or should you want, switch back to the petroleum and the layer will build back. A synthetic should, ours will provide better film strength, substantially better protection than a petroleum oil. For example our 10W40 would provide the film strength/protection of at least other 20W50 oils. If clearances in an engine are looser, an engine is worn a higher viscosity can be used, though I wouldnt expect most older engines that are well cared for would be excessive worn needing a higher viscosity. The 10W40 contains 1330 ppm zinc and more importantly for flat tappet cam and follower protection, 1200 ppm phosphorus. An engine originally built/designed when petroleums were used wouldnt necessarily be built much different now with synthetic oils in mind. Some current engines are specifying lower viscosity oils for improved CAFE numbers and potentially decreasing bearing clearances slightly. and this is from Amsoil I assume in 1975, Ferrari specified the use of 20W-50. Mainly for the SAE 50, I will assume. Probably a 40 would be OK, but I personally would stick with a 50. I'm not sure what the ZDDP content is of today's Castrol 20W-50, but I doubt this is the cause of your cam lobe wear (yes, please send pictures). No need to discuss basestocks in much detail, other than saying I think the main cause of any wear in your current set up is the slow pumping at start up, even at 70°F of a petroleum based 20W-50. This is where the true beauty of synthetic oil shines. If you are curious, Redline and Amsoil don't use "different base stocks" (common BITOG error) - they just use basestocks in different proportions. Redline uses PAO's, Amsoil uses esters - Amsoil uses PAO's and Redline uses esters - you see? In Redlines oils, they use a bit more esters than PAO's. Makes zero difference in your application. I would try this oil: http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/rd50.aspx?zo=515729 Or even better for storage: http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ame.aspx?zo=515729 Both will pump WAY faster than Castrol 20W-50. Could there be anything else causing this cam wear, not related to oil choice? what to do what to do.....
This is making you too crazy! Sell the car and buy a new one; have the dealer change the oil in accordance with the factory recommendations (it was Mobil 1 10/40 every 15,000 miles on my '99 Porsche 911) Seriously... Asking an oil maker about oil recommendations is a waster of time - they are just going to tell you why THEIR oil is what you should be using and, oddly enough, the oil they recommend for your particular application (whatever it is) will most likely be their most expensive oil as opposed to their least expensive oil. If the oil meets the required service and weight - it makes no difference at all what brand you put in there or if you mix them. And if you change the oil as frequently as most people seem to with these cars, using synthetic over standard oil will not add any benefit. YES - Mobil 1 did add around 5HP at 7k in a 400CID big block motor over standard oil but in the Ferrari I doubt you'd get even 1 or 2.
Well both the redline and amsoil are about 200$ a change. The reason I am being so careful is I do not want to repeat my cam damage. I am also having a hard time figuring out what weight to run. If you read the Oil primers by A. H I should be running 0/5 weight. I am trying to decide between 10/40 and something /50. Plus at 200$ I was hoping to get some insight into whether the Redine or Amsoil had different properties that would benefit my car or driving style temps etc. I do know this almost every engine builder I have talked to said that they are seeing much more wear with the new oils.....
Hugh & All, I know this seems stupid to some of you but I am still trying to decide between Amsoil and Redline. If you read all the stuff available your had will explode. I am leaning towards the Redline 10/40 but keep reading that Amsoil make a superior product. Have any of you tried either or both in a 308, If so can you give your real life experience. And yes I read all of AH Oil 101 stuff, which is great but he is talking about mostly new cars! Rob
Unless someone has assembled a pair of engines and measured the clearances on every surface, then put each oil in the engines, then ran them both exactly the same way for X thousand miles, then disassembled them and re-measured the clearances, it is impossible for anyone to accurately answer your question. Anybody that says "I have always used X oil and it's better than Y oil" may have good intentions but the "endorsement" is meaningless because nothing has been measured to determine that. It's a waste of time and effort to listen to motor oil recommendations; if it meets the specs, it's fine. The two oils you are considering are just two oils out of many that will do the same thing. IF you want to go to extended oil change intervals - like Porsche's 15k miles, THEN you need to look at oils designed to do that - synthetics. But they don't provide better protection if you are changing oil annually/3000 miles. Using expensive oil to do that is just putting money in their pocket for NO benefit to your engine.
I use and recommend National High Mileage Formula 10W-40 as it is an API SF grade oil designed for use in gasoline engines prior to 1988. It is produced by Pinnacle Oil in Indianapolis, IN and I am fortunate to be able to buy it locally for just under $2.50 quart. Image Unavailable, Please Login
I have to laugh at an ad/label for a product that can't even spell it's primary purpose correctly...or maybe it's intentional. "Anti-ware" sounds like they don't care for products of any sort (hardware, software, houseware, silverware, etc); "Anti-WEAR" would be what I'd like some lubrication product to claim. Of course, if you claim "anti-ware" nobody can sue you if your anti-WEAR characteristics are non-existent.
I cannot agree with this estimate of just 1 or 2 add'l HP... just seems like there's more on the table... Seems to me that a big block push rod engine, true, does have more internal friction than an OHC engine...due to one big thing...the push rods / valve train. The removal of this machinery from a Ferrari engine cannot account for an 80% loss of gained HP from the oil from 5 to 1 or 2 HP. Displacement is relevant of course but piston skirt contact, bearing width and wetted surface area, valve train as well as crankshaft windage are still VERY significant in any engine; including a Ferrari engine. My estimate would be a 3 to 4 hp gain in a Ferrari engine with ALL other aspects being the same engine to engine. Synthetic oil internal friction reduction is the whole enchilada. It helps ALL engines. Significantly. Where there's friction, there's a benefit to using it.
You may be right - I'm just basing the "estimate" on the engine displacement, figuring that the friction involved might be maybe 1/2 of that in the big US v8 in the first place so the "improvement" would be less. But I may have that wrong. In any case, Mobil 1 was good for some "free" HP over standard oils of the same viscosity.
Friends, I ended up using 15/50 Redline. The car is running great but I have a few more leaks than I used to, mainly on the sump pan. I am also kind of freaked out at the thinness of the oil it is more the consistency of water than oil to me even when hot after a drive. I am thinking about switching back to Dino oil and was hoping to find out if anyone did this it made thier car leak less. Of course the health of the engine seems paramount but oil ending up all over everything seems just as bad. I have no leaks from the work I did but the amount of oil is making me reconsider. The thinner oil is also hard to gauge as 1 drip is so thin it ends up in a wide puddle... Rob
I own a 996 turbo as well as a 308 GT4. The Porsche guru claimed that Mobile 1 5/40 Turbo Diesel oil would be helpful to quiet the intermediate shaft noise and reduce wear on the Porsche. He WAS VERY CORRECT. It seems that diesel oils are better. No catalytic converters. I am going to put DIESEL oil in the Ferrari as well. My 2 cents.
.....'Robert, I have really enjoyed reading all of your input and your quest for the best possible oil to run. I'm up in Northern Cal., so it's a little hotter up here. 'Good for you that you've got your thinking cap on! Please understand that I'm only offering my 35 years of experience with owning Porsche 911's, Maserati's and Ferrari's. 'Going back to 1977 when I bought my first 911 (air-cooled) the shop that helped me ran nothing but 20-50W Castrol. After all, man, the oil better be good in an air-cooled engine! Today, I'm still running 20-50W Castrol in my '86 328. I still haven't bothered to ad the Castrol Syntech that I've had sittin' on the shelf. The reason I've always been a big fan of 'heavy' weight oil is because as soon as even 50W oil gets' up to temp., it's as thin as sewing machine oil anyway! Even in my RV, which has got a 460 Ford OHV (pile-of-junk), I've even stretched the 50W Castrol by adding a quart of 90W gear oil to quiet annoying lifter noise. (I know, sounds crazy but never had a hint of a problem.) As far as your cam lobes pitting, I would tend to believe there was a problem in the original heat-treat or hardening. Otherwise, if it was the oil's falut, it would seem that more than one of the lobes would have been pitted? Other notes: Thanks, perfusion. I just happened to have drained a little gearbox oil recently and saw that it was blue. 'Wondered about that? So for my 30K service 4 years ago, my guy obviously must have added Swepco. And my car's always had that 2nd gear stiffness, even with only 40K miles? Of all the racing engines that we ever worked on, the most impressive oil and by that, I mean parts that were the hardest to clean, (an oil film that seemed to STICK to crankshafts, rods, pistons, etc., was Torco 60W racing oil. And those engines after many, many miles, exhibited "0" wear.
TF and all, I think you are right about the lobe damage, all the rest looked fine. I am thinking of maybe something with the correct ZDDP in it I think the racing Valvoline has it but the 20/50 castrol does not. I used to change my oil so much it would be nice to get something local I really like the redline but still think it is too thin when I shut the engine down and it was hot I checked the dipstick and oil literally dripped off as I took it out I was used to the Castrol 20/50 which at least stuck to the stick...... Not so sure I have a thinking cap on just want the best for my car, which I love. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Been using the Syntec 5W-50 for years, from before the zinc controversy. Suddenly am aware it's no longer made. On eBay I can probably find enough for one more change, but need to start planning a switch to something still in production. At a glance, it looks like with Mobil 1 I can have their "flat tappet" recommended product, or I can have 5W-50, but I cannot have both. Am I looking at this correctly? Thanks, GF
I was at WalMart yesterday to get a new battery for my Jeep and while it was being installed I went out to get some oil. I've been using Castrol Syntec 10w50 for years and my recently disassembled engine was very clean - no varnish, camshaft lobes and bearings shiny and showing little wear. I began adding ZDDP a couple of years ago when I found out about the reformulation on the Syntec. Here's the rub. no more Syntec 10w50. But lots of Shell Rotella Synthetic diesel at under $20 for 5 quart jugs. I'm thinking about going to the Rotella and adding ZDDP. Any comments?
