thinking about a mondial coupe purchase, if one can be found...which year would be the better choice? Thanks
That question opens a can of worms ;-) Choose the style you like most (8/QV or 3.2/T) and buy on condition. 3.2 is probably the best in power vs. DIY maintenance. I’m a black bumper guy, so got a QV.
Mondial 8 - cheap, lowest performance, mid-range cost to repair but most repairs are "engine in" Mondial QV - mid-range price but climbing, better performance and better reliability, similar costs to repair as 8 Mondial 3.2 - slightly higher than QV but also climbing, better performance than a QV, generally accepted better reliability, similar costs to repair as 8 and QV Mondial t - price jumps up quite a bit on the T's, better performance both in speed/acceleration and in handling (lower engine, in-line orientation rather than transverse), much higher cost to repair (engine out needed for many services) I don't know if the Mondial 8 suffers from the sodium valve issue on the early 308s, but that's also something to look out for if it's there. Don't remember when this was no longer an issue. I know the QVs didn't suffer it. So, pick your poison. I like the "black bumper" as well, since my first FCar was a 308 QV and it harkens back to Magnum, but, I found a decent 3.2. It was NOT in the best condition when I bought it, but I was aware of what needed to be done, and it's now very reliable. I would recommend the 3.2. It's similar to the 328 (essentially the same engine) which is considered to be the most economical and reliable 3x8 series to buy. 328s are now in the 120k range... damn, I still get mad at myself for not buying that 328 out of Washington DC at 50k about 10 years ago... black/red with 30k and I balked on the price. Side note: In the US, the hard tops (coupes) usually demand a premium as they are a bit more scarce. I wonder if you can get a Mondial 8 and put this in it: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1992-ferrari-512tr-engine/ LOL
A 3.2 right before the T would be my recommendation. The center console has a handy storage tray instead of the warning light cluster of previous models. As mentioned, its transverse engine is easier to work on than the later Ts. A completely subjective point and often not immediately noticed, the 3.2 maintains much of the original designer's intention, whereas the T evolved a kind of inflated 1990s look to it. Both cars were at my local cars and coffee this last weekend: (photo is cab but still applies) Image Unavailable, Please Login
When I began my own search, I had the same question. I was open to ANY Mondial, but leaned towards a coupe. Just needed to be well serviced and in somewhat decent condition. My next step was to start networking by reaching out to some local Mondial owners who generously allowed me to see their cars and go for a ride, while answering my very many questions. In my mind, a 3.2 coupe was the "sweet spot" but was keeping an open mind while I looked for the right car for me. NOTE: There were only 87 of those 3.2 coupes that came to North America, which shocked me to learn! Lo and behold, I managed to find a 3.2 coupe, right here on F-Chat!! As you may know, this is a tight-knit community, so definitely, ask your questions, do some additional research (Keith Bleumel's Ferrari V8 book is but one example) while perusing and searching the Mondial section of the forum. Good Luck!
I agree - All Mondials are cool, but a 3.2 Coupe really is the sweet spot. I looked for 4 years for the right car before picking up my ‘88. The super sweet spot is a pre-ABS 3.2. 2cam
I love my 83 coupe QV took me 2 years to find it and during that year only 52 where imported to the US. It’s not a fast car but it’s so fun to drive. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
Note to OP: There is a very clean looking 1986 3.2 red/tan coupe just listed in the F-chat classifieds!
That's a very hard question. Comes down to 3 things 1) Which looks best to you? 2) 180hp (this is what I believe is the true output of the 8), 240, 270, 300? (Choose your poison) 3) Are you willing to put up with the 't' engine out? Answer those 3, and then the only thing left is color and getting the best example you can find.
Earlier models didn't have the best rustproofing until some time in the QV era. Also sodium valves in the '8' model. Electronics seem to steadily improve as well. TRX wheels are a negative, many early cars have had them swapped out. Prefer the feel of the manual steering available up to the 3.2 model which I have. The T model has more potential maintenance with the drivetrain. Gearbox has some issues. Compare 308-328 vs 348 to see. (348 is equivalent to 'T')
I have an 85 QV but must admit the 3.2 hits the spot in terms of looks, the revised bumpers but with the earlier side strakes suit the car best.
Image Unavailable, Please Login I went through this in my time and ended up targeting a 1988 Mondial 3.2 cab or hardtop, Swiss market version. The car is the last development of the original design, and has all the detail improvements yet still retains the essence of the original design. The Swiss market version has the then most up to date KE3 type fuel injection, meets modern emmissions in all markets, and has unique longer gearing which makes for around town driving with fewer shifts and great cruise capability. Also some added sound proofing, and rear fog lights that style wise break up the length of the rear grill and add detail interest. I think technically this is the "best" variant. My only hestitancy was the ABS, which is a useful feature, but the system is now obsolete and parts are going to be a problem long term. Perhaps a 1987 model without the ABS would be the best specification as a long term keeper. I think this is the best looking and best engineered of the series, hence why I hunted one down, a low km's cab in red with black interior, and purchased it. No regrets over the last 18 years of ownership, and I am convinced I have the best variant! I did look at a QV, in silver it looked very nice. In red my 3.2 had a more integrated look. The colour choice can make either car look quite different, so I could see a slight QV preference in other than red. I did cross shop a t, and I just didn't find the revised style an improvement. The engine is completely different, and requires engine out service - even if I liked the t better overall, this would have made me pause. The seats were not as good a fit for me, and the interior style also was a little too modern for my taste. It drove quite nicely, but I found the shifting in the 3.2 to have more feel. I have never seen or driven an 8. There can't be many of those still around. I do like the Nardi steering wheel, compared with the later Momo's.
Hi all, allow me to hijack this slightly. Points above well noted. I've had an on and off interest in Mondials for a while, rekindled by the recent Casey Putsch video, and have been watching some of the BaT auctions with a feel for price, issues, etc. I don't know if there's one in my future - if there is, it's a way off - my interest in any case is education. I've watched the Car Wizard's 308 restoration too, so I have a feel for what's required mechanically. The "buyers guides" out there are at best superficial click bait, they cover the most important issues perhaps - fuse box, belts, windows, sun roof, but don't go much beyond that. I'm interested in the gritty details of what's needed in having/working on one. An engine out without a lift doesn't scare me as much as perhaps it ought to. I guess a lot of this you just "have to know", by reading a lot and following things - any pointers on resources? (One list I found was 100% broken links). Likely any car I might get might be a "needy driver" - I certainly don't need a collector piece, and I'm OK with a car with a less than immaculate history. And finally, regarding the "cheap" BHCC cars with the "Free turning engines" (which I'm well aware could cover a whole range of issues), but what is the likely set of issues with such cars, beyond the usual that you'd expect from a car that's been sitting for a long time and probably needing a great deal spent in parts? Thanks in advance!
First, if you want to go hands-on, FChat will definitely be a huge resource for you, either this forum, the 308/328 forum (essentially the same engine) or the technical forum. That said, the common advice is to buy the car in the best condition that you can afford, someone in the 308/328 section always quoted that... can't remember who. Cars that need work WILL cost time and $. In my opinion, the best car to buy is one that has sat for a while, then someone picked it up and fixed all the "major" problems, then got bored. Sometimes the owners can price at a premium, but you'd be surprised how often a "well-sorted" car comes up for sale (auction or elsewhere) that is reasonable. I would say the 2nd best car to buy is one that has a well documented AND continually updated service history. If someone has owned a car for a long time AND continued to perform the maintenance, then it would be reasonable to assume that the car is in good drivable condition. There's a guy on YouTube who bought a 328 (black/black hardtop) and thought it was a great car, until he spent an excessive amount getting the car back to top shape. Runs like a top now, but it cost him (he complained a lot in his last video). If his was going for sale AND someone had the money, that's the kind of car you would want, assuming you liked the color combo and the model. There is an 87 3.2 hardtop on BAT now, and the history is a bit suspect. Because it's a coupe/hardtop, it might command a slight premium, but I would like to see where this one falls, it has some questionable things, but seems to be a good "starting position" car. My 3.2 had some issues, and I'm not a wrencher, so it's cost me a bit of $ to get sorted. However, at the time I bought it, it was priced fair and seemed to be a decent car. Before I bought (then sold) my 308, I looked at a black/red 328 that was for sale in the northeast. Someone on FChat bought it before I could put together an offer. It was at a dealer, and the guy the bought it told me later he regretted it because it needed extensive work that he didn't realize (missed the bullet on that one). Doesn't really answer your question(s), but just more insight. James
The most expensive Ferrari is the cheapest one. Bought an 83 Mondial coupe about 21 years ago. It was a driver. Great from 10’. Decided that was happy with the Mondial as had some reservations before purchasing. So now to attack the list of issues. Priced it out, and well it’s getting up there. Then saw my now 88 coupe advertised on EBay. It was about 9k more than paid for my 83. But it was so much nicer. Bought it, sold the 83 for the same price paid earlier. Best decision.
I’m not sure there is a best. Too many variables. My opinion would be an 88. Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat.com mobile app
I don't doubt that for a moment. Some background, I have DeLoreans - one is a former concours, but that was a long time ago and a lot of things have aged out and have been replaced or updated by myself. The other is a "cheap" barn find that fortunately the PO had done the big spend on - it's still been an enormous amount of work to put things right, but I've been exceedingly lucky with the spend - parts availability on both original and aftermarket is excellent, and if you are prepared to be patient, anything can be found. The question of "cheap" cars is one I lecture on a lot. Increasingly we see horrific condition cars that may need $20K in parts alone just to get running. (As an aside, there are no "production years" - they were made of 2 years, with many running changes, and although there are lots of superficial differences between cars, condition is the overriding rule with price). Still, examining such cars can be very instructive as to what to look to avoid, and the types of things can go wrong due to poor storage, aging, cost of repairs and parts or whatever, which is why I ask. e.g, this gem: https://www.beverlyhillscarclub.com/1981-ferrari-mondial-8-c-12846.htm To my uninformed eye, I see relatively high mileage (91K km), some areas of rust that demand a closer inspection, and a car that got all the service back in the day, but has been left to sit for many years, and all that that entails. What did I miss? And yes. I understand you could spend not very much more and get a car that's actually running: https://classiccars.com/listings/view/1667047/1983-ferrari-mondial-qv-coupe-for-sale-in-deer-trail-colorado-80105 Prices for Mondials seem to be very approximately the same as DeLoreans, although the higher end Ts are rather more, but the other Mondials remain very approachable in terms of pricing. I have looked at 308s, but prices of those are now stupid, and they are cool, but in the end, they don't appeal that much - a 4 seater makes rather more sense to me. And regarding the BaT car presently, I'm seeing in various auctions, including a recent 944 one, that buyers are being much more persnickety about imperfect cars. That's probably in part due to cooling of the market overall, but I'm also seeing buyers getting much more informed about what they are getting into, which is probably a good thing, but maybe frustrating for buyers. If one were patient and careful, I think there are deals to be had on classics in the future, on cars without stellar histories. Immaculate cars seem to still command very high dollar amounts. As for buying an immaculate car - well, then, what would I have to fix?
Ok, so maybe I'm missing the question, @MrChocky. Are you wanting advice on that specific car(s) or generic advice on what to look for for problem areas. Other than generic "buyer's guides" that are on the internet that I think you referenced, I don't know of any "list" of things to look for by model or model year in terms of the "nitty gritty" that you mention. I can only add anecdotal info I've learned from time here at experience (see below), but honestly, the best thing is the inspect a specific car yourself OR get a PPI. Dave Helms, out of CO, is a GREAT mechanic, but he hated doing PPIs since he'd basically "pick apart" any car. Early cars, like the BH car, are 8 valve, slower, have metric wheels, may have sodium valves, etc. I think someone said the rust coating is not as good, so rust can be an issue? Still a Ferrari, but the Mondial 8 is what gave the Mondial a bad rep. QVs are more reliable, have 4V, more HP. With the 308s, the electrics could go (hence birdman's fusebox update), not sure about the Mondial QVs, but there is someone on FChat who sells upgraded fuseboxes (I have one for my 3.2). The QV you posted has painted bumpers, doesn't look right IMHO (not stock). 3,2 generally looked at as the best for the model because of increased engine size, increased reliability, standard/US wheel sizes, and engine-in for most services. T has most power and better interior, but comes at a cost. (I'd love to have the T interior in my 3.2). Hardtops with sunroofs can leak (supposedly). Convertibles can be a pain to get right. Failure point on the convertibles include the latches (someone here makes replacements that work GREAT!). As a side note, there is a hatch for the "front bank" located under the convertible top, so you can do things like change the spark plugs, very helpful if you do plan to do some things yourself. Other than those above, I'm not sure there is a list of things to look for. I'm not a wrencher, as stated before, but when I bought my first 308 (QV GTS), the owner was, and did a compression and leakdown while I watched, was cool and took some time, but I knew the "guts" of the engine was ok. I later discovered that the car may have had more miles on it that on the ODO, something I cannot prove, but it still was a great car and performed well. I did venture out and buy my own set of factory spark plug wires, extenders and plugs for my 308, took me several hours to change them so I can do some things, but it takes me a while (was being cautious). My 308QV needed more "fidgitying" with the coolant (bought a 1.1 cap, had to "burp" it a lot), but never overheated. I've never heard of the same problems on the Mondial, but I would think it would be similar. While I didn't do a PPI on my current car, I did have an FChat member view my current 3.2 at the previous owner's house, and gave me a GREAT write up. It was chancey since I didn't know the engine, but everything else seemed to line up well.
Here are some "gritty" details about making a Mondial a nice driver. I think one needs to start with making a car safe to drive. This means replacing as many hoses for fuel and coolant that you can. There are a lot of hoses, and quite a bit of labour to get access and do them. Brake hoses are probably wise to redo as well, and the clutch slave hose and clutch slave itself should probaby be done on any car you purchase. Mid engine cars heat up and cook all the rubber parts, eg. the clutch hose and slave is like 6 inches aways from the header. Then there is a fuel distributor, that has rubber components inside that can degrade with time and modern fuels. Rebuild that, there are kits online if you want to tackle it yourself, it is a fussy but doable job. Or have a rebuilder deal with it, there is a fellow in the US that is the go to for this. Depending on the model year, there could also be a WUR, that is part of the Bosch fuel injection system (all Mondials are injected, the systems did vary over the years and specific markets), and that should also be rebuilt. Many rough ruinning problems can trace to the fuel distributor. The fuel accumulator also has rubber inside and perishes, causing hot start problems. So replace that too. Then there are some seals in the differential that can leak, and while you replace those you should clean and regrease the cv joints and put on new rubber cv boots. There is a shift shaft, with silent block bushings that loosen over time, and the two shift shaft seals that should be replaced, they will all leak. The dist caps, rotors, spark plugs, wires and coils should be replaced, they are expensive and therefore not replaced routinely like many would do while doing a tune up on a more conventional car. Do all these things that reflect age related deterioration and deferred maintenance, and you can end up with a reliable car. Get a new battery, clean up the electrical connections/grounds. Might need a new fusebox, but might not. There are cam and distributor seals that can leak, valve clearances that need to be checked, timing belts and bearings that are regular service requirements, accessory belts and idlers, and water pumps that fail more frequently than on typical modern cars. The key is there is very little truely "exotic" about these cars, most of what needs doing is a function of the specialized labour to work on the cars and source parts, most garages that don't specialize are afraid of working on these cars even though many of the tasks are not so special. I am an advanced do it yourselfer, and have done many of the items noted over the years. I am not price sensitive, so I pay up for parts and am thankful many are available from a bunch of good suppliers, and with my labour being "free" I find the running costs to make sense for a car that gets plenty of actual use. From a fix it up perspective, definitely stay away from the t's, there is more complexity and engine out requirements. The early 8's are scarce, so that leaves you with a choice of QV's and 3.2's. The later 3.2's convertibles will probably be easiest to work on (access panel to the front of the engine behind the seats which the hardtop does not have), and eventually sell on in that the 3.2 is in a sweet spot at the classic/modern transition in looks, mechanicals and usability in modern traffic.
Yes, as was yours. Thank you both for your detailed answers. I could probably comment on everything that was said, but I'd be here all day! My initial problem pwas not even knowing what to ask in the first place. I have more than a few things to consider at this point, but for the moment, I have some starting points for research. I'll be back with some specific questions at a later date.
