... especially because of Webber going there. I just read on F1-live that Frank Williams is thinking of retiring and that would really shake the team up, as replacing Patrick Head is at the moment. With all the talk of Trulli being kicked out of Renault, I'm starting to think Mark should have gone back to Renault (as a driver this time). Pete
Yup, me too. Without Frank Williams the team really ceases to exist as we know it, and that, along with the fact that both of the current drivers won't be there next year, leaves me to believe that the team will never be the same; for better or worse, I honestly don't know.
Remember what happened to the Brabham team once Jack and then Bernie lost interest ... I do hope Webber does not become a modern Chris Amon, making really bad team moves at the wrong time. Saying that Jaguar were never going to move up the grid ... Pete
I think it is a little pre-mature to think that Williams F1 will cease to exist without Frank Williams. Team McLaren went on without Bruce McLaren and flourished under Ron Dennis and company, Ferrari went on without Enzo Ferrari, even before his death. The top and even middle tier Formula One teams all have strong foundations and solid backing that they will eventually ride out the tough times. I think the key of any F1 team and the future of F1 is within the ability to entice the major manufactures of the world, which Team Williams has already done that with their association with BMW. If anything at all, BMW will probably just buy the team as Renault did with Benneton or Ford/Jaguar with Stewart etc. Also, this is one bad season they are having, with a team like Williams, I wouldn't be surprise that the team bounce back soon. I remember that it wasn't long ago that some members of this forum were ready to hand the world title to either McLaren or Williams before the season even started, and a few were ready to hang themself because the F2004 was not innovative enough at the introduction. And that BAR-Honda was an embrassement etc. Even more recently, there were a few members here that feels MP4-19B is going to suck and were almost ready to send McLaren back to Can-Am racing ??!! The last time I checked, MP4-19B did pretty well in the last race and the MB engine held together fairly well in the past couple races. To speculate is human nature and is part of the fun of being a fan, but to freak out over nothing without getting the real facts is a little silly.
I'm with Anthony C. on this, I think if anything that BMW will push to have a lot more authority and say in the team which might involve an eventual buy out.
Whose freaking out ... I'm just concerned that Webber might have made the move to a so called big team and he might end up wasting a few years. A racing team to be successful has to be a well oiled machine ... doesn't take much to derail it. Look at the MB engine issues at McLaren, apparently caused by the death of one of the partners at Ilmor and MB inserting somebody new in the company ... though it does look like MB and Ilmor are sorting it out but it has taken a couple of years (enough time to kill a drivers career), as this engine issue started with the US GP and Hakenin in 2000 or 2001. Anyway we'll watch with interest! Pete ps: + this is more interesting than yet again discussing JPM's ability and Sato's backing ...
That I would agree with you, as I am not exactly sure if going to Williams is the best move at this time. As a fan of MW, I think he should pick a team that is on the rise instead of a team that may be undergoing restructuring. When MS took up the task to re-vitalize Ferrari, he was already a WC and has already established himself as a top driver. I think MW should sign with Renault or even Toyota (Which may turn out to be the best move RS ever made in his career as of now, especially with the team appear to be really starting to settle down with their key people). I would have hate to see MW's career go the ways of Jean Alesi if Williams does not sort out their internal problems within one or two seasons. Not only that, I also feel that if I were a driver, I would stay as far away as possible from the Williams team as I think Frank Williams treats his drivers like crap, and ironically, so did Enzo Ferrari, may he rest in peace. Anyway, MW will have to face the consequences of his decision if he does decide to goto Team Williams, much the same way the JPM will have to with his own decision on going to McLaren. Such is the World of Formula One. Now, get yourself back to the discussion on V8 engine use in F1. We are not done there yet !!!
I didn't say Williams would cease to exist. I said it would cease to exist as we know it. Don't paraphrase me!
The Williams team is still one of the giants of F1. So they had a few reliability problems early in the season and then a few technical mishaps.....all with a radical car design. This season easily could have gone up 30+ points if they had their **** together. Sometimes a season comes together in such a way were all the little things add up......and if they are all bad little things...then you have a McLaren/Williams 2004. If it's all the good little things, then you have a BAR 2004. Of course this is a gross oversimplification and the Williams car still lacks pace.....*but* they do have the basic infrastructure to build a very phenomenal car next year. Of course, if they have two seasons this bad in a row and sponsors start going down the toilet....well then a problem arises.
Frank Williams did not say he was going tomorrow. He said in about 5 years time. The man is so old. He has got to go someday.
I read an interesting article in an English newspaper about the Williams twin keel design. It seems, that this idea has back fired. Instead of the revolution, they have now painted themselves into a corner and can not really evolve from this. If this is true, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see the walrus next year anymore.
I am sure that the Williams team will make a come back soon. McLaren created a new car in mid-season, Williams has just as much resources as any of the other top teams in F1, if it truely doesn't work for them, I am sure it will be abandoned soon enough. We will just have to wait and see.
I think that Frank Williams is bored of today's F1. Remember the good day's, with Hill (Damon), Senna, Villeneuve (Jacques), when all the drivers wants to join in his team. He use to have a great car, and everyone thougt that in this season they would have it. But the "revolutionary" car in this season it's just like the other cars in the last 4 or 5 seasons... a car to win some races, but not to win the championship. Frank is an important person in F1, but he'll have to go someday, just like Bernie...
Well you see the problem Williams is not the car performance but also driver performance. With Ralf gone for an exntended period of time they have too many issues. Marc Gene showed how much he lacked at the British GP and well Montoya, lets not get me started on Montoya. I think Williams desperately need to have Heidfeld or maybe another quicker driver replace Gene. The other problem is that the F1 testing ban is arriving soon. So any changes in drivers have to be made soon. That way at least the new driver will have a chance to familiarize himself with the new car.
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My previous post was more directed specifically in the twin-keel chassis of the Williams. But if you are going to throw other variables to the mix, such as driver factor, then the whole nature of this discussion will need to be modified as new variables has been added. Anyway, my previous viewing experiences tells me that just because a driver is fast, it doesn't necessary translates to knowing and understanding how to setup or develop a car. On the same token, a great development/test driver may not be quick, but he/she knows exactly what and how to adjust a car and its packages. Only the very selected and gifted few has the ability to do both. For example, out of the top drivers in recent F1 history, Nigel Mansell does not even come close to the likes of Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher, Mika Hakkinen or Damon Hill on developing a car. NM used to induce engine failures with his right foot when there is something wrong with the engine, that way, instead of finding out what is wrong with the car, the team will just have to replace it. Imagine how he will do today with these one engine/weekend rule. Anyway, we will just have to wait and see what happens at the Williams' camp.
Webber will do fine -- from everything I've read, he's a very involved driver, with a technical savy for the engineering; look what he's done at Jaguar/Ford -- if he can 'survive' there, then he'll be okay at Williams, I'd presume. Sir Williams leaving will probably precipiate a greater managerial role from BMW embodied by Dr. Thiessen -- he's a brilliant engineer, and with respect to operational know - how, seems to tick tock like a swiss watch. Renault is a good technical team, but I have a feeling that Briatore's constant 'hand in the cookie jar' antics regarding the managing of drivers, and restraining their interests to further his, may hinder Renault's driver pool; if they become a revolving door for drivers, they'll lose consistency, and therefore lose pace. my 2c
If there is one thing the SF's recent success has shown, it is the importance of stability in a team. All this changing of drivers, managment and personel is not the way to beat Schumacher and Ferrari. Williams may be headed for a long restructuring. In fact the only real strength they have right now is the BWM engines, and even that is somewhat in doubt with the possible switch to a v8 formula.
I was at Silverstone on Friday as a guest of one of the Williams' sponsors. Their PR man confirmed that it is very unlikely that the walrus front end will be used next year
Thank god that development was a flop, today's F1 cars are asthetically challenged enough, I wouldn't be able to deal with a full grid of walrus cars.
I also think it will be unlikely that the twin keel design will be a stayer. Sauber, Arrows, McLaren and now Williams have tried it ... nobody has really made it work, McLaren are the closest in my opinion, but does it really have any advantage other than theoretical? Pete
Very interesting. Didn't one of their aerodynamicist just arrive from Ferrari? Maybe this was a planted bummer. Kinda like the falsified Concorde blueprints that ended up in Soviet hands...
