Blackbird Concessionaires: Short Film about 4561SA.

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by miurasv, Jan 22, 2018.

  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Owner Carlo Voegele talks about 4561SA.

     
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  2. ag512bbi

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    I enjoy clips like this. Nice, short and right to the point.
     
  3. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    Someone should telll him he owns a 330 LM, not a GTO (of which there are 36, not 39). Not knocking the owner at all, just trying to correct the record. He genuinely seems to love the car and that's a great thing. Thanks for posting, Steve.
     
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  4. miurasv

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    #4 miurasv, Jan 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
    Dave, I know you are not knocking the owner or the car which is fabulous. Congratulations to him for owning this great car for so long. There weren't 3 cars with the 330 engine with this body but 2 as has been discussed a number of times on FChat. The body was modified around 1965 after a road accident so the remarks about that aren't quite right either. A new front clip with the round lamps is said to have been made for the car by Carrozzeria Sports Cars (Drogo), but was that work on the instructions of Ferrari where the car is said to have gone for repairs after the road accident? Also, not a 330 GTO but is it actually a 330 LM or a 400 Superamerica?

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  5. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    Hi Steve, on that you and I are in complete agreement, as is anyone who is acquainted with the modern additions to research in this area (courtesy of DWR, Paul P and perhaps others).
    36 250 GTOs. 2 330 LMs.
    I used to think of 4561 SA as the 'world's most valuable (400) Superamerica', but more recent discussions on the board with Dyke clued me in to the fact that on the build sheets it's referred to as a 330 LM.
     
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  6. theowinstone

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    The video is indeed not accurate in saying the car has never been crashed – it was flipped into somebody’s front garden in East Sussex in quite spectacular fashion in 1965 at the hand of the third owner Charles Daniel, who lost the back end on ice in the early hours of a winter’s morning on his way home from a party. The car was taken to Pietro Drogo who was a pal of Charles' where the modifications to the lights and the flaring of the wheel arches were requested.

    Although the car was hardly ever raced competitively, 4561 was very much driven to its designed capabilities on the open road. Charles used it as daily transport for 15 years, and told me if did not do over 160 mph at least once a week, he would suffer from ‘withdrawal’...
     
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  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    I wonder if Dyke has seen the build sheets for 4561? I'm reliably informed it's a Superamerica. The Ferrari web site states 3765 and 4561 have SA chassis number suffix but also refer to the two cars as 4-litre GTOs: "It should also be noted that the two 4-litre GTOs (chassis 3765 and 4561) plus the four 330 LM berlinettas (chassis 4381, 4453, 4619 and 4725), all had chassis numbers with an SA suffix from this series of cars." Interestingly on the same page of the Ferrari web site 3673SA is noted to be a Superamerica with a SWB Berlinetta body. No mention of a GTO body then on 3673 and only 2 cars with the GTO body so the web site is in agreement with Nathan, Dyke and PPP.
     
  9. DWR46

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    Steve: I do not have the Build Sheets for 4561. The Build Sheets for 3765 DO NOT list the SA suffix. The only reference to "SA" is the block internal number (42SA). 330 LM #4453 has a chassis stamp that reads " 330 LM 4453", so, as I have said MANY times, NOBODY at the factory today has a clue as to how the cars were built.
     
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  10. miurasv

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    #9 miurasv, Jan 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
    Thanks, Dyke. Do 400 Superamericas have Watts Linkage at the rear? I also wonder if the 4 litre cars have the Watts Linkage. I've also been wondering what gearbox is in 4561 - 5 speed Synchro 250 GTO type, 4 speed non synchro as in the 4 litre LMBs or 4 speed with electric overdrive as in the Superamericas. The GTO books say 5 speed 250 GTO synchro.

    Regarding the "GTO" reference not even the 250 GTOs actually have "GTO" written on the Build Sheets as its official name was the 1962 250 GT Competition Berlinetta. Chassis type 539/62 Comp. Engine type 168/62 Comp.
     
  11. DWR46

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    Steve: I can tell you this. 3765 has Watts Linkage, as does 4453. To my knowledge, standard 400 Superamericas do NOT have Watts Linkage.
     
  12. miurasv

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    #11 miurasv, Jan 23, 2018
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    Great. Thanks again, Dyke. It would be good to know if 4561 has Watts Linkage or not which would go some of the way to establishing what it is. Maybe. :)
     
  13. miurasv

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    ...and whether 4561SA is a road car or a race car????
     
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  15. miurasv

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    #13 miurasv, Jan 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
    Dyke: Do you remember if the Build Sheets for 3765LM state the chassis tipo as 538, 539, 539/566 or something else? The chassis plate states 538 which I have read is the tipo for 400 Superamerica.

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  16. DWR46

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    Steve: 3765 Build Sheets state chassis Tipo 539/566, and Engine Tipo 163/566. I would just wonder if the ID Tag in your photo is original to the car.
     
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  17. miurasv

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    Interesting. Yes, that does raise the question about the plate. On the GT and Competition cars do the tubes have the chassis tipo and chassis number stamped on them anywhere or is it just the plate that was used to ID them? Sorry for all the Qs.
     
  18. DWR46

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    Steve: I would say "all" but somebody would prove me wrong. But "almost all" Ferraris have the chassis number stamped somewhere on the frame itself. See my above post for #4453, stamped on the frame "330LM 4453". chassis tipo, no; but chassis number yes.
     
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  19. miurasv

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    Great. Thank you very much, Dyke.
     
  20. miurasv

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    Dyke: Do your 3765LM Build Sheets denote the race and how many Webers do they say the engine is fitted with?
     
  21. DWR46

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    Steve: Ok, here is the deal. initially, the engine was completed on May 10th with three Weber 46 DCF 3 carburetors. After the Nurburgring, it was rebuilt (freshened) with a heavier duty Generator, new Pistons lowering the compression ratio to 8.6 (for the poor quality French fuel at Le Mans), a new set of fully polished billet connecting rods, a new set of magnesium valve covers for six carburetor linkage, interestingly the cams for both races were stock street specs, not Tipo 130, the rocker arms were changed from bushings to needle roller bearings (as standard for Comp engines), new main and rod bearings were installed. All this work was completed by June 17th, barely in time for Le Mans.

    Also the 4-speed gearbox was overhauled with new Anti-friction bushings, and filled with Shell Spirex EP 90 oil.

    The rear axle ratio was changed from the 3.78 used at the Nurburgring, to a 3.56 for the longer straights in France.

    As to your actual question, the Build Sheets do not note a change of carburetors. However, we all know that Build Sheets are full of errors, so the six carbs could have been so obvious, that nobody wrote them down on the sheets! I have always thought the car ran Le Mans on six carbs, but I have no actual photographic proof. Surely someone here on the forum has a photo of the engine compartment at Le Mans to answer the question definitively.
     
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  22. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Absolutely fantastic, Dyke. Thank you very much. That is really great information about 3765LM, a car that there has been so much mystery around in the confusion with the 3673SA Nurburgring claims. Your post will please and satisfy many people. Thank you again.
     
  23. miurasv

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    #21 miurasv, Jan 28, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
    Pic of 3765LM at Nurburgring 1000 KM, 1962 below. If someone has a pic of 3765LM's engine compartment at Le Mans, 1962 to post here that would be great.


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  24. Boudewijn

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  25. miurasv

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    Great!!! Thank you very much, Boudewijn.
     
  26. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Boudewijn: Thank you, case closed.
     
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  27. miurasv

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    #25 miurasv, Jan 29, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
    Blackbird Concessionaires say that 4561SA is even more precious than a 250 GTO. From their introduction to the video: "Ferrari's 250 GTO is one of the most desirable cars on Earth, but within this extremely-rare and intensely-coveted group of machines lies an even more precious stablemate - the mythical 330 GTO." The car is unique being the only genuine GTO bodied car with its original 4 litre engine. 3765LM doesn't have its original 4 litre engine and it has been stated that it last left the Ferrari with the 250 engine so is that car now a 250 GTO? What do you think????
     

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