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Blowing fuses..wrong relays....in a 87 TR?

Discussion in '308/328' started by carguy, May 12, 2005.

  1. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    3,317
    Alabama (was Mich.)
    Full Name:
    Jeff
    Tonight I was gonna start tracing some wires to find my cold start problem, but before I did anything I figured I'd verify all fuses and relays. Referring to my owner's manual it states "113" relay for both fuel pumps. WELL...my car has (had) "101" relays in there....and when I went to put a "113" in there it blew the fuse!! Same thing for both fuel pumps. I'm not going any farther until I understand what's going on here. Could it be a short? But where? The car runs fine when everything's warmed up.....but during cold starting the coldstart injectors dont get any power. I'm not the brightest guy when it comes to wiring....but any help would be greatly appreciated.
     
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  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,086
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    My factory wiring diagram book shows 101's for the pumps. I have used this man since 86 and I have yet to find an error in it.
     
  4. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    3,317
    Alabama (was Mich.)
    Full Name:
    Jeff
    Wow....so my owner's book could be...probably is....incorrect !! I actually hope it is, because my car runs pretty good when warmed up. I hope nothing was damaged when I plugged the "wrong" relays into the fuel pump circuits. The fuse popped isntantly....

    Thank You Rifledriver.....hopefully other TR owners out there go and check their cars and books....I'd hate for someone else to go through this.
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,086
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Ck with Ferrari UK and get one of the wiring diagram books. I don't think they cost lots and it will save you headaches.

    Is is simple, well laid out and easy to use. Don't worry about year model just get one that is for a Bosch KE car.
     
  6. henryk

    henryk Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    479
    Door County, WI
    Brian,

    I have the Ferrari "official" US version, wiring diagrams, for both the 86/87 and 88 model years.........two books.

    The 86/87 lists the #113 as the fuel pump relays.

    The 88 lists the #101 as the fuel pump relays.

    My 88 owner's manual states the #113 as the relays.

    I went to my car.......took out both relays.........#101........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Go figure!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    19,897
    Texas
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    Steve Magnusson
    #6 Steve Magnusson, May 12, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Unfortunately, the same kind of error appears in the TR SPC (I don't recall if it's exactly wrong in the same exact way, but I know that I've got pencil corrections on that page in my SPC). This jpeg shows a correctly stuffed later US TR relay panel (that matches the '88 US TR wiring diagram as Brian mentioned).

    unlabeled = ...113 relay
    diagonal slash = ...101 relay
    "K" symbol = ...006 relay

    I think it might be a safety thing that evolved. When the ...101 fuel pump relay is "off" it actually grounds the "+" wire going to the fuel pump motor (rather than just being left open using a ...113 relay).
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,086
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall

    Great. I've got both of those, I guess I have always grabbed the right one for the job at hand. The only differences in those cars is the mirror and the passives in the late cars.

    The 550 diagrams are so bad it would be funny if you weren't tearing your hair out trying to fix something.
     
  10. henryk

    henryk Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    479
    Door County, WI
    It would be informative, if someone with an 86 TR check the actual relays used.........and if the car is US or euro version. Maybe they differ.
     
  11. henryk

    henryk Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    479
    Door County, WI
    My relay "box" looks just like the one pictured by Steve.........with the slashes and the "K" in the same places.

    So we all concur........#101 is the 'proper' relay!!!!!!!!!!! I will correct my manual.
     
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  13. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    19,897
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    Steve Magnusson
    The schematics in the TR WSM (which I believe reflect a snapshot of the design situation circa 1984) show the fuel pump relays R & T as the ...113 variety, but that's the only place I've ever seen the ...113 relays shown in a schematic for the R & T relays.

    I've also got the later standard version TR wiring diagram (459/86) from 1986 and this shows the ...101 relays so maybe not many (or none?) were built with the ...113s (but the later OMs never got changed to match the change to the ...101s) -- do we have a poster with an early TR? US or otherwise?
     
  14. Prova85

    Prova85 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,952
    So. Shore MA.
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    Kenny K
    Mine is an early 85 'otherwise' model imported 6/85 from Germany and relays R & T are 113's in mine.

    Kenny K.
     
  15. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    19,897
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    Thanks -- at least that confirms the ...113s were used initially.
     
  16. Prova85

    Prova85 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,952
    So. Shore MA.
    Full Name:
    Kenny K
    Next questions would be any speculation on why the change and what's the difference between the 101's and the 113's ? And why the fuse blows ?
     
  17. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    19,897
    Texas
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    Steve Magnusson
    The fuse blows because the ...113 relay has an extra 87 tab in the middle position of the socket pattern. This middle position in the socket is hooked to ground on the TR that use the ...101 relay. When you plug in the ..113 relay on such TR, the 87 tab at the bottom position is connected to +12V and the 87 tab in the middle position is connected to ground -- blows the fuse. If you physical cut off the 87 tab from the middle position of the ...113 relay, it would work OK (but you'd lose the saftey feature that the ...101 relay provides of grounding the fuel pump motor "+" lead (on the 30 terminal) when the engine is shut off.
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,086
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall


    His is a gray market with straight K Jet. Don't know the reason without looking at diagrams but that could be the reason for the different relay and is probably why the OM show 113.
     
  19. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    3,317
    Alabama (was Mich.)
    Full Name:
    Jeff
    What started out as a distressing thread has resulted in the accumulation of useful, important information. Can you just imagine what fcar ownership would be like without this forum or the internet? I'd have sold my car off a long time ago if not for all you good people out there. Thank You EVERYONE for taking the time to look things up, look at your cars, and post your findings. It would be great to meet you guys at the big meet at Indianapolis after the F1 race....as I can't Thank You enough for being in my corner and helping me through this.
     
  20. sparky p-51

    sparky p-51 Formula 3

    Aug 8, 2004
    1,374
    klamath falls, Or.
    Full Name:
    steve
    Once again the Fchat tech guys save my bacon. Have an 87 tr wsm that shows 113 relays for the fuel pumps and 101's in the board....What the hell. Now what do I do. Recall reading this thread before I had the car. Did a search and oh boy perhaps I will beable to get some sleep 2nite. Thanks Steve, Jeff and all. Only wish Brian was still around.
     

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