Boeing Dreamliner to fly today

Well, thanks. I'm old, I have done a lot of stuff in 83 years and I think that in spite of being a bent fork most of the time I did learn a few things. I spent 48 years working with Boeing, starting as a flightline modification mechanic in 1950 and managed to fool enough people along the way to end up in preliminary design in 1977. when I started at Boeing it had a total population of 33,000 and was struggling to get on to civilian work. I saw it go from the 707 on which I worked to the 777 on which I worked as one of the first members on the team in PD. This company's core and backbone was engineering excellence AND a highly skilled cadre of manufacturing people. All work was done inside the plant and the results were known world wide AND respected by the customer and competition. It pains me to see this strength disseminated and spread around to those who can only neutralize it in their attempts to use it.
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I totally agree. But, it's exactly what the American airlines needed... 2 years ago. The plane is late and the airlines are still broke. Unfortunately, we won't be able to appreciate what a success this plane is.

 

I'm not exactly sure why the subject of strike came up in this thread but I have to lay a few things to rest.

For one, I am, NOT a big union guy. I plenty of gripes with them.

There is a misconception that the strike last year added to the delay of the 787 program.
Not true, the 787 couldn't be assembled because there was a critical shortage of permanent fasteners (Titanium) and a shortage of parts supplied by foreign vendors that were built incorrectly and didn't fit. The strike did nothing to delay the 787.

The same held true for 777 deliveries, there was a shortage of galleys by the same German based company that supplied Airbus thereby making it impossible to complete and deliver 777's during the same period.

Ironically it is the "lazy overpaid" union represented Engineers and SKILLED mechanics that busted their asses for the last year to get this 787 airplane into the air today,
continue to roll one 777 out the door every THREE DAYS,
initiate the new model of the 747-8 (which is close to flying as well) and
rolling one 737 out the door DAILY.

Lazy and overpaid indeed.

Okay, I'll shut up now.

 

US airlines are going to need a lot more than this plane.
As far as appreciating the success, not for a while, at least not me. You on the other hand will be able to because of your world travels on all the great airlines.

 

How true re mechanics getting it done. In all the programs on which I worked engineering was ALWAYS LATE and when they thought that they had achieved perfection, they threw the drawings over the fence for manufacturing to bale everybody out...and they did...every single time. Too many times we had to send teams from Boeing manufacturing AND engineering to sub contractors to train them when they couldn't perform. I was on many of those trips and wish that I was able to do the same now when the 787 needs so much help. But you don't build up a top level manufacturing force in a few months, it takes generations.
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Great clips DJ. What a beautiful airplane. Think it was the Dreamliner that was doing fast taxi tests when we were at Payne looking at the Tigercat in August? Thought it flew at that time but without the paint.

 

I don't deny that there will be a learning curve in SC, and I think that Boeing should designate the first couple of airplanes off of that line as "non-revenue" aircraft to be used in-house, but don't denigrate the southern aerospace workers just because they will make less money than their Seattle counterparts.

Remember, these workers will come from the same talent pool that has gotten very good at building "zero-defect" F-22s and C-130Js for some time now. And the fact they will be just assembling aircraft with parts, assemblies and subassemblies built by vendors elsewhere tells me that Boeing will be fine in the long haul.

And having lived in both Seattle and here in the south, I can confirm that the cost of doing business down here is now much less than in the great Northwest. Seattle used to be an affordable place to live and work (like back in the 1979-80 timeframe when I was working on the 767) but my recent trips back have been very expensive.

 

I corrected your post and am adding two more:

3) Because of #1, it's not going to be as profitable given all the late penalties Boeing has to pay to airlines.

4) The first five aircraft are complete right-offs. None will be delivered to any airline because they'll differ too much from production aircraft.

 

I grew up in the south, went to college in the south, went there many times on work related problems in recent years and I didn't see the skill base that exists here. I'm not denigrating anyone but I'm simply recognizing the facts as I see them. Some of the worst work that I ever saw came from Canada (767 pressure dome) , put together by a work force that was recruited from rural communities. Certainly you cannot blame the people who are doing only what they know at the time. You have to train them before they are put to work AND have well trained quality control people to inspect the work before it is shipped. They had neither. The best work that we saw came from Japan and it was absolutely flawless. Built by those who have had quality ingrained into their thinking from childhood. By the way, what group did you work in when you were on the 767. I was in Bob Hammer's structures group before I went into PD.
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Just out of curiosity Bob: What exactly is the pressure dome (is it the the rear pressure bulkhead?) and who manufactured it?

 

Yes, it is the rear pressure bulkhead that is built like half of a balloon to save weight and to be more efficient at containing the load. A flat pressure bulkhead is extremely heavy due to the deep beams and a heavy web to resist deflection. The 727 has a flat rear pressure bulkhead because of the aft entry accommodations and the beams were aprox. 6-7 inches in depth and closely spaced. Canadair was the supplier of the 767 pressure domes if I remember correctly. That was over 30 years ago. Hard to believe it.

 

Interesting you mention that Canadair manufactured those. The CL-215's that we have here at Buffalo are built like tanks. I'm not arguing with your observations, as it's defintly a different production line and possibly different geographical location.

Does Canadair still manufacture the 67 domes?

 

I don't know if they still build the domes but I'll call my old gang to find out.

 

What you saw taxiing was a 787 but the airplane you saw taking off without paint was a 777-300ER.

The video shown yesterday was in fact the very first time a 787 has left the ground.

 

The first 5 aircraft are NOT complete write-offs.
There is nothing wrong with the airframes and systems and no reason to write the airplanes off.

The first five 787's are going into Refurb after the testing is completed. They will be disassembled of all test equipment and wiring and then reconfigured to passenger configuration for All Nippon Airways and delivered at a steep discount. Meanwhile #6 (or #7) will be the first one delivered to ANA for passenger service with the other 5 following..

The same thing was done with the first 4 flyable 777's back in the 90's. The launch customers were quite pleased to get a nearly new, reconditioned 777 at a bargain price with full warranty.

 

Caanadair/Bombardier, who also builds the same stuff for Airbus.
This is a very cross-connected business. The Main Deck Cargo Door for the 777F is built by the same company in France that produces doors for Airbus.

 

Bombardier (Canadair)

 

What you're giving is anecdotal evidence from a while back and some times in between. Statistically speaking, you can't use that to make the claims you are giving. If you know what the quality of aerospace manufacturing is in the ENTIRE south TODAY and can show me otherwise, I will side with you.

By the way, Gulfstream is based in Georgia and they've been doing great for quite some time. I wouldn't call their workforce unskilled.

Just sayin'

Edit: Did I mention the fact that Gulfstream can design and build a new airplane on schedule???

 

Thanks, Spasso. You are on top of all that now and I'm not. The only bombardier that I remember was the guy up in the nose and now they don't even call him that . He's a bomb-bardy-yay ?

 

When in France.............................

 

Yeah, Boeing used to do that. The last one was the 777.
Even with the Everett factory only half built they got the first 747 out the door within weeks of the projected date.

So how come?
They had control of the product, start to finish, engineered all of it and retained their core competencies, (the wings) among other things..
Their primary goal then was to build the very best airplane in the world, now it's all about stock holder value (profits).

 

So was I! I worked in Lower Section 45 (the assembly Grumman was to build) for a lead man named Gary Hull, who spent his weekends on skis (snow in winter, water in summer!). Do you remember the HH-1 Zipper project that Bob was doing in his spare time back then? I saw it fly at the '79 Arlington fly-in, but it met its demise shortly thereafter. I need to dig out the photos I took of a unique little airplane.

I was surprised when I found out that Bob was now in charge of the Me 262 Project at Paine Field, though the last couple of times I've visited the Project (including this past August), Bob was off doing something else, so I guess that I haven't seen him in about 8 years or so.

 

Yeah, you have touched a sensitive spot when you refer to the 747 program. I was there from the start and I recall checking items on the mock up when the wind was blowing the huge tarp that pretended that it was a wall and everyone was bundled up in woolies but continued to work as if it were warm. I spent too many Saturdays and Sundays working on the airplane WITHOUT PAY because we had to get it out on time or the company could go under. It took the measure of all who were involved in the program that was a monsterous undertaking at the time. It was a man killer, literally. I saw a few stretchers going out of the assembly area and there were midnight meetings to expose those who were not meeting there targets. I worked one weekend literally, from Friday to Monday to get some stuff done on time. It was the most brutal program that I ever worked on but they got the airplane out on time. The economical down turn and the cancellation of the SST coupled with the lack of orders for the 747 put the company into a terrible financial situation and it went into the god ol' lay off mode and I got caught in it. In the end it was a great program and the airplane would finally go into full operation to prove itself as one of the greatest airplanes ever. Those who survived the program were called "The Incredibles" and I have a photo of " The Incredibles" survivors taken on the 25th anniversary of the roll out where I am somewhere in the middle of a greatly diminished group of people. There are many stories that could be told about the incredible incidents that took place during the final push to get the number airplane one out the door.
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I agree with you 100% but I don't think any of the highly skilled workforce you mention are willing to do it for the 10 or 12 bucks an hour that Boeing is willing to pay in S.C..

Consider for a moment the skill sets that you DO get for that money.
Now apply them to the first commercial airliner ever built out of composites using an all electric flight control system, (no hydraulics).
Quite a daunting task for a bunch of greenhorns.

 

Now that is a SCARY thought.....

Are these people working the line trained at all? or only in-house Boeing training?