I've always struggled with using that word around here, kind of an oxymoron, I'm here to do a job, seriously, but at times I end up having fun anyway because I work with such a dynamic bunch of people!
#2 flew at 9:09 this morning. One hour flight then down to Boeing Field Seattle. Much more instrumentation installed on this one.
First of all I wish I had been able to meet you when I worked there. I started on the 777 in Final Body Join and moved to the flight line in Renton for the remainder of my tenure until my layoff around Christmas 2000. Like you, I am sick to see most big corporations like Boeing and Lockheed move from the engineering/manufacturing mindset to the bean counting model. It doesn't work in reality, just on paper and I see the negative results of the "just in time" parts availability (read non-availability) and bad bean count driven management decisions every day of my life. Frustrating to say the least and it succeeds in sapping the pride and enjoyment right out of building planes, it ain't what it used to be. I loved to listen to the stories I heard from my late friend Lew Wallick who was a test pilot and Ed Hoit who was a 777 test pilot, these guys were there when a lot of aviation history was being made and I'm glad to know them. Those stories alone instilled a lot of pride for the company in me, I had a good experience working there all in all. On a positive note; one thing I can say for the Boeing Company is that I really was impressed with their training and the amount of it that a new hire recieves. It was top notch, specifically the electrical training in Everett. I came right out of the Air Force a couple years prior and the training that Boeing provided and encouraged was every bit as good, detailed and relevant as any I had in the military. Contrast that with my current employer Lockheed Martin, skill training is hard to come by and not in the same ballpark as what Boeing had. They had their stuff together when I was up there. Hopefully they will train the structures, plumbers, electricians, etc... as well as they did my generation, that would certainly help a bad situation. I'll quote from one of Spasso's posts: "The Puget Sound has a seasoned workforce with decades of experience with the idiosyncrasies of building these things but the Company feels that they can get the same results out of an inexperienced workforce making 10.00 an hour. Good luck!" I agree to a point, but on that note, the 777 workforce and I mean a big part of it, was made up of grossly inexperienced people and being a new hire this shocked me. Case in point: During my new hire orientation those of us sitting around during one of the breaks, asked each one where he came from and what our backgrounds were. I came from 10 years Air Force at the time as a mechanic and electrician with an A&P license, the guy next to me got hired from Nordstroms shoe department in the mall with NO aircraft experience. What en eye opening contrast, and we were both hired as electrical installers. By the way, we got paid the same $12.72 an hour which was the most I ever made to that date and was glad to get it. The year before I worked across the runway for B.F. Goodrich Aerospace which was called Tramco at that time, for $8.50 and hour. That orientation sat me next to an older guy who had served in Vietnam and had been an airplane mechanic nearly as long as I'd been alive, we called him "Sarge" because he liked it. He got the same $8.50 I did which also shocked me, he was worth way more than I felt I was, given his experience. I don't know if those guys in South Carolina will get paid $10 and hour or whatever, I do know that the company, be it Boeing, Lockheed, or whoever will try to get it done cheap and pay as little as they can get away with. This I know as a fact from first hand experience; 25 years of it. We all have to eat, it takes a job, a decent paying job to provide for a family. It takes everything I make to get by on one income but our CEO took a 5% cut in pay this year so he's down to 22 million and change per year as a salary so I have hard feelings of any cuts in my pay, benefits, or any take aways when it comes contract negotiation time every 3-4 years. That's just one of the negatives about being hourly... You make everyones paycheck while the upper management tries to cut yours for cost savings; it's a viscious revolving cycle. I should have been a Ferrari Mechanic! ;-}
I also hope that whatever it winds up being, they won't try to shove it out to the customer before it is "really" ready as in the case of the 737 next generation. I worked those when they came out to the flightline and they would not fly straight among other things. We had all kinds of problems with them and delays out the ying yang and all the while they (Condit and Mulally) was telling the stock holders and the public that things were "under control", that is when I lost all respect for them as members of executive management. Here you have the CEO and the head of the commercial airplane group lying flat out to save face and that is just unacceptable. We had one guy, a "rigger", that knew how to fix that trim problem and proved it by rigging the the plane to compensate for the design flaw. However, when he suggested to engineering what changes to make he was blown off I guess because he wasn't an engineer and how dare he make suggestions. Well, before he retired the engineering department called him in to meet with them and ask him to tell them what he thought should be done since they were unable to figure it out at the time and he told them to stuff it basically and never did give the info to them. That little spiral notebook he kept in his shirt pocket with all that practical knowledge went with him when he retired. We had a little going away doins for him on B ramp that day. Sharp guy but evidently doesn't like to be looked down upon for not being salary...
Don't let Rifledriver on Fchat hear you say that. From what he has said, it's tough balancing the income with the hours expended on any particular car to actually make a good living at it, especially on a Ferrari (or Audighini)
They had the same problem on the 707, yaw dampening issues. I guess the knowledge wasn't passed down to the new guys.
Yes, it was shocking to me too. I was one of those new hires but I was trained by some of the best in the business. The seasoned workforce I was talking about were the guys that were here for the preceding 20 or 30 years before the 777 that trained US to be the seasoned work force we are today. There will always be a ratio of seasoned workers versus new hires and idiots in every work force. The ratio of experienced and seasoned builders happens to be the best in the Puget Sound when compared to the what they are going to find in North Carolina, the ratio will be completely upside-down.
Right on ! ! We busted our butts to make every airplane light and revenue efficient THEN the customer gets the airplane and jams the seats together with thoughts only to making more money regardless of passenger comfort and then adds something near 6000 lbs. of " passenger entertainment" equipment to the airplane and the reliability issues associated with it. Does anybody read books anymore ?? Phil Condit was another huge mistake and was instrumental in bringing in a bunch of people from Douglas who almost sunk the company with their don't spend any money on anything new philosophy. Re the 737 NG. If it's so bad why is it out-selling every airplane in the business.? And why is its reliability rate so high? It's a turn-key airplane and the airlines love it. Every new model has and will have some issues.
When I compare what I've seen and worked with here so far with what I worked with and saw up there, the difference is night and day overall. I felt I was working with far more competent people at Boeing. There are some damn good techs here but in my opinion very few. Boeing folks were better trained, trained more often on subjects that count and actually make a difference in the outcome of the product, and they seemed more motivated to a degree. I never thought I'd admit it but the management was WAY, WAY better up there too; especially Tom Elliot who was the best manager I ever knew. He never forgot where he came from and treated us all accordingly. I don't mean to Poo Poo my employer but I also don't believe in being anything but honest regardless of where the chips may fall. The truth is the truth and the only thing I'm interested in on any subject; that's all there is to it. Corporations all over this country have forsaken the proven methods, business models and practices that work for the make believe, politically correct, we wanna be like Toyota 6 Sigma B.S. to the point where we can't even do what we are here for with all the non value added roadblocks in the way. There's been so much outsourcing that we don't have much of a machine shop at all anymore. Damned politicians.... I wish I'd been around in the days you were talking about, they were a different breed it seems, more serious about their respective professions than what I encounter most times today. When I was at Renton field I felt I had the best job at Boeing. Coming to work every day was a joy with the lake right at the end of the runway and the Cedar river running between the ramps slam full of Sockeye, what a place to work making the best airplanes on earth, or above it! I don't miss the rain though.
The simple answer is that the bugs got worked out of it. They all have bugs but you hope the major ones get worked out before they go into production rather than afterwards and then you end up building them on the flight line via Non-Routines rather than in the factory via O& IR's. When the bread ain't all done, it ought to be left in the oven a bit longer that's all. I never said they were a bad plane but I know first hand that they cost the company and in particular the Commercial Airplane Group a heap of money back then mostly because it was rushed to market. There was genuine fear it would take the group under at the time. I don't know how true that part was but those costs coupled with the economy woes in China where a lot of wide body orders got cancelled led to my layoff along with about 30,000 others there and in Wichita. Those cuts went way back over 10 years worth of seniority. That's a lot of knowledge base to lose. It is unfortunately inherent with aerospace work; feast or famine... such is the story of my life.
Tim, I didn't mean to jump at you. The 737 like all before it had some birthing issues, some in the initial stages came close to sinking the program. Subsequent models will always come up with something to challenge the builder. The 737 yaw damper, rudder control power units, and high drag early nacelles, were obvious problems and they were all fixed. Any airplane with swept back wings AND dihedral will not fly straight (if that is what you are talking about) and require some sophisticated fixes. When I look back at the 707 I don't think that I can count all of the glitches that popped up on that airplane...structural, systems, environmental, aerodynamic, etc. BUT the program produced a great and successful airplane. I have written a short account of the things in the early days that jabbed us when we weren't looking and I have done several presentations before the younger engineers in PD at Boeing. It's stuff that you won't see in the text books and they are quite amused and surprised at what happened and how things were fixed. I know all about the layoff stuff. I got mine after 21 years of loyal and hard work but that is what happens some times. I placed myself on the wrong side of a political fence and received a payback for an earlier confrontation. Stuff happens. Switches
I don't know if you're really as old as you say you are in one of these posts, maybe it was a joke and I just don't know it because I'm new here, or maybe not. However, if it isn't to late in life to start a big project, I wish you would write a book because I dang sure would love to read it. I wish Lew would have written one too. When I think back on all the interesting people I was able to become aquainted with when I lived there in the aviation community like Clayton Scott who was Bill Boeing's executive pilot I realize I was just scratching the surface of the wealth of aviation history in that area. I'd look across the runway while I was working 757's and his Cadillac would always be parked under the tower and he'd be fooling with something every day in that hangar over there. He had to be close to 100 when he passed away, he still flew his 195's on floats in his 90's and didn't wear glasses. An amazing life he must have had... I'd like to read that stuff you mentioned that you wrote if it's available. Cheers
Yeah, I am as old as I claim to be. I started working for Boeing Oct. 4, 1950 as flight line modification mechanic on B-50's even after going to school at Duke. I preferred to use my hands then. Before Duke it was the USAAF and before that I knocked around on the west coast of Florida, Siesta Key to be accurate. Went to school in Sarasota before it was discovered. Before that I was born in 1926 in Washington, D.C. and became an airport bum by the time I was 5 or 6. First flight was on 6-19-1935 in an Aeronca C-3, my 9th birthday. Had to kick the dinosaurs off the runway before takeoff. I had a wonderful association with old pilots, old airplanes, and crop dusters. I also knew and flew with Clayton Scott, Brian Wygle, and Lew Wallick was a very close friend and it was sad to see him go. He could have written some very interesting and hair raising books about his test pilot days. His work on the 727 was scary. I helped with the construction of the 1916 Boeing B&W replica that Clayton's outfit built. He and Wallick flew it on and off and it now hangs in the Museum of Flight in Seattle. Wallick said that it flew about as well as a rose bush. I knew and flew with the late Pete Bowers for almost 50 years and did the initial construction drawings for Fly Baby when it was entered in the EAA competition. I was the 200th pilot to fly it. I'll quit all this. I don't want to sound like a braggart but I got carried away because it is so enjoyable to look back at how much fun I have had. Switches
Believe me, HE IS. The diesel locomotive didn't enter service until he was 10 years old. Freight trucks (REO) were chain drive with hard rubber tires. Just think of starting out in those days and seeing all that has been done and accomplished in the last 85 years.
100% Tim. I hate the rain too and I've lived here all my life. I keep telling these guys that we aren't building Toyotas or Toasters and they don't listen. These are infinitely more complicated and the production systems cannot compare.
I worded that request/inquiry the way I did because you always hear authors talk about how many years it took to write a book. I reckon they were all fiction and it took that long to make it all up, but it seems to me that if you're telling your experiences it may take less time. At any rate, I doubt most folks in their 80's would want to delve into a project like that. But... don't let that stop you Mr. Parks. I had the forsight to tape record some of the few stories my Grandpa told me about his experiences in the Army Air Corps in B-25's. They are treasure to me now, he died not long after I got hired in 96. Because of those stories I made a 1911 45 Auto on my mill and I'm going to hand engrave it with some scenes depicting a few of those exploits in his honor. Totally of topic now so I'll be over here shuttin' the heck up now... Cheers
Thanks, Tim. I have already put 150,000 words on disc and I actually don't know what to do with it right now. It covers a lot of years and incidents. I'm talking with an author to try to figure out the best way to present it. Your machining the commemorative .45 is a very nice thing to do. It's good to know that you appreciate your grandfather's service AND it's important that our history is preserved in things that are respected and valued. By the way, with all due respect, I'm more comfortable with being addressed as just Bob. I like to think that I'm just one of the gang. Switches
I like to think that I had something to do with convincing the Boeing managers that they would save money if they spent some on training instead of a lot on rejection tags and repairs. Several of the training programs that I developed are still in use at Boeing and produce mechanics who can go to work with some experience in the materials, tools, and processes that they have to deal with on the job. It cracked me up to see some of the new engineers coming into our group in PD bragging about and showing us the beam assembly that they had to build in their pre-assignment training AS ENGINEERS. They got a hands on experience with the hardware and tools that those in the shops used to formulate their designs. When many of them didn't believe that I had designed the beam and the training lessons to build it, I had to bring in prints of the original drawings and lesson plans to prove it. Great fun. I developed courses in beginner mechanics, engineering familiarization, production illustration, 727 aircraft familiarization, 747 familiarization, SST familiarization, wire installation, plumbing installation, oxy lines installation, and many others. Tim, you bring back similar memories of the 707 flight line at Renton with the Cedar River and salmon. Unique and still there...so is the rain in the winter. BUT nothing can beat the summers here. After the B-52 I went to Renton in 1952 to work on the KC-97 mod program and it segued into the 367-80, KC-135, 707, 720, 707-320,727, and then I went on to the SST, C-5, and eventually the 747. A brief layoff and then on to the 767, 777, and many many derivative studies in PD. My flight with Scotty was in 720B number 721NW on 6-19-1962 . We took off light, 162,000 pounds, and started the t.o. roll to the north. Scotty held the airplane down until the undulations in the runway were coming on like a cobblestone road. He looked at the copilot and said, " You ready?" At the answer of yes, he lifted off so suddenly that the oleos banged when they hit the stops. Climb out was so steep that all we could see was blue sky. When we leveled off we were at 33,000 cruising south over the Pacific 10 minutes later. The tests that flight were to find out why the airplane was losing 200 ft. in steep turns while on auto-pilot so we spent an hour going from one steep turn into another. One of the test engineers got sick on this one but it was a blast. Scotty told everyone to belt up when he was going to simulate an emergency let down with all the spoilers and main gear deployed. Things went DOWN in a hurry and the turbulence from the spoilers was so great that some of the overhead panels dropped out from the vibrations. Coming back over the Olympics we looked down and saw the 367-80 hovering like a helicopter at 80 knots when they were testing the blown flap system for the C-114. A great ride. Switches
A little off there, Spasso. Those trucks with the chain drive and solid tires were Mack Bulldogs. The REO's had inflatable tires as I remember. Our first radio was a crystal set and I remember the milkman delivering the glass bottles of milk in the dark morning, listening to the tinkling when they were in the carrier. The horse pulled the wagon on his own while the milkman delivered to the doors and that horse knew when to stop at each house and to go by those who didn't get a delivery. There were still a few gas lights in the neighborhood but they were soon gone. Airplanes de jour were Curtiss Condors, Model 80's, Model 40's, Fokker Universals,etc. Even a few DH-4's. Later on when I was a big boy of nine I got rides in OX5 Waco's, Travel Airs. or Commandairs. The first metal machine that we saw was a Boeing 247. Switches
Bumping an old thread so as not to start a new one. The Dreamliner (what a great Old Detroit sounding name that is) looks like it is going to be a grand slam. Is it as good as it looks in the promotional videos?
