Boxer Classiche Certification

How unfortunate : the vintage boys will probably chime in later but unless your car is likely to appear at a major auction I'd question the value of Classiche - isn't there a nearly original certificate : historic significance or something - the dossier prepared to seek Classiche anyway will surely tell its own story

 

Why don't you borrow a rear clip off an unmodified vehicle. S

 

Didn't you know about the arches and wheels not being original specification? For what purpose did you want the certification? A Classicche Certificate only proves that the car was original spec at the time of certification. As the wheels have been borrowed too, which will be returned, I don't see much point to a certificate for your car, unless you're going to get some original wheels. You could offset the cost of original size wheels by selling the wider ones on the car.

Personally, I think Classiche is a good thing and if you do get the bodywork done, buy and fit the original size wheels and keep the car to original spec my guess is you'll get your money back when and if you sell the car.

I do find it strange and questionable of Classiche that they are prepared to, and have "borrowed" the slimmer, original size wheels for your car to certificate it, knowing that it will immediately have the non original, wider wheels re-fitted, if that is the case as you say. It's like they are being party to a deception. Out of interest, who is carrying out the inspection?

 

If these wheel arches would have been made by Michelotto, you would´t face that problem.

Friend of mine had the same issue on his 328 GTS, but his arches had been made by Michelotto which meant no problem with the certification.

 

Would not apply to this instance. In this case, you get Classiche or nothing.

CW

 

Even Michelotto-modified cars have had issues. The 360N-GTs, which were modified Challenge cars built by Michelotto, could not get Classiche. Same for the F40LM and 333SP. However, I believe that SpA has eased up a bit, and they now are eligible for the "of historical interest" category, as opposed to the full certification. But, again, EACH car gets scrutineered, and the politics are, um, uniquely Italian.

Here's an article by Sheehan on the Classiche "Lite" programme...

http://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?reqart=SCM_201005_SS

CW

 

For road cars, I'm not sure why anyone bothers. But, it's the owner's prerogative.

There was a time (and it may still be the case) that if you wished to enter your car in the Legenda e Passione factory auction (conducted by RM), the car had to have a certificate.

At some level, therefore, the certificate removes any doubt so you're not arguing with a buyer/seller over the authenticity of something. And, perhaps, there is some value in that. BUT, for those who know the mistakes that have been made by Classiche, it has almost totally undermined the integrity of the programme from the start. And, even if the car comes with a certification, a buyer still needs to do their homework. The cold truth is that SpA has created a profit center for itself. Indeed, it REQUIRES dealers to submit a minimum number of Classiche applications per period.

As you can tell, I'm not totally sold on the Classiche programme. I do appreciate the fact that I can get a replacement part fabricated by Ferrari (for a price, mind you) that is simply unobtainable anywhere else. Regardless, if you swap out a rear clip for the certification photos and measurements and then put the original back on, it's still going to cost you thousands of pounds more. Whether it will be the dealer (or the factory guys) doing the work or not, I don't know, but I rather doubt it's going to give you the payback you hope it might. OTOH, having a nice presentation binder on the bookshelf may be enough.

CW

 

I'm also not a fan of the certification, knowing to many stories about - but the cert has some value for some people that may be true.

If you want to sell the car, I think the original wheel arches will increase value and the certification won't be a negative factor ... do you like the wider wheel arches?

 

I'm afraid cheating the system wouldn't add much to the arguement for Classiche...

Page 3 of Classiche states that they must be orginal as installed on your car or the body work corresponds to the original model.

Unless your car were to have participated in competition of a historic nature, that required the modifcations...

Any chance of that in your cars past?

S
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Good Point and Good article,

s

 

I dont place any value on the certification. Ive seen too many certified cars that are far from correct in big obvious ways. One that stands out the most was at a judged event where I watched a ferrari dealer restored and certified BBi not even place. They spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to go home empty handed and dejected. The guy had the binder telling everyone that it was certified, didnt mean a thing.

 

And, that right there, is the rationale for this entire programme from SpA's perspective.

CW

 

Because folks back then didn't give two whits about originality. They judged the car for what it was and whether it appealed to them. Heck, old Ferrari race cars often had their engines torn out of them and replaced with Chevy or Ford engines. I don't know whether this relatively new phenomena about originality is useful or not, but I expect a LOT of money will be spent taking apart things that people spent money to do. Maybe the prior owner of your car wanted to personalize it. Maybe they wanted more performance. It's just silly that we have to endure this nonsense today, literally DECADES after the fact.

But, also consider that there is now a class at Pebble Beach for cars with patina. Former restorations made the car perfect and beautiful but often removed the car's history. Lauren's cars are a perfect example of that. I think there's a trend away from such perfection and back towards the "in-period" moment in time. Take that back even farther, though, and you get to as it left from the factory. So, maybe things have just gone too far back in time?

Further, you mention another problem: entry into events. Get an FIA technical passport, if you can. They'll automatically accept a Classiche-certified car, but that's not necessarily the end of it. However, Classiche is something that the organizers of these events are abetting. I don't know why, and I don't know what's in it for them. Frankly, they risk turning away lots of very nice, legitimate cars.

CW

 

BTW, I think your car looks very nice as is. I'd say leave it alone and enjoy it.

CW

 

Please can you give examples of certified cars that are far from correct. Could it have been the case that the owners of these particular cars changed parts after receiving certification?

 

Im looking at a car right now thats advertised as 97 points right now and certified, in the photos alone I put it at high 80's low 90's at best. Im waiting for more photos.

Its a car that was DOT certified at some point and partially undone. Missing the zipped pouch that matches the interior, wrong ignition coil, wrong gas cap, wrong speedo, the list goes on and thats just in photos without seeing the underside. Its a very nice car but to advertise it at 97 points and certified is less than accurate.

 

The rims are cheap to get, a few models used the narrow wheels the 365 was saddled with, its the fat rears that are hard to find.

 

Thanks for your reply regarding the certification. Please excuse my ignorance. I'm assuming the 97 points is for a concours. Classiche don't grade with points do they?

Regarding the wheels, were the 9" rears a factory option on the 365 Boxer? What size are the rears on Jon's car?

 

That's right! Original mag 13 inch wheels are quite expensive, demand for the 9 inch is also high, nearly every Daytona owner would like to have wider (9 inch) wheels, there is no modification required.

 

Two separate things but if its certified it should score perfect or at least place in an event no?

All 365's had the same width rim front and rear and the clam shell was made accordingly. The 512 came along and they widened the rear fender flares to fit the new 9" rear wheel. The 9" rear wheel doesn't look right on a 365, it comes too close to the width of the flares and sometime sticks out like a hillbilly pick up truck with fat cragar rims shod with Tornado raised white letter tires. Maybe that was a little harsh lol

 

I may be wrong but I think Classiche is a measure of the originality and not the condition of a car whereas the judging of a concours takes into account the condition?

I've seen a few 365 Boxers with 9" rear wheels and always wondered if it was a factory option so thanks for clarifying that. Off topic, were the 9" rear wheels a factory option on the Daytona?

 

9" cromos were not an option wrt the daytona.
Ed

 

Thanks. So did the 9" rear wheels that we see on 365 Boxers and Daytonas bought from Cromodora or Ferrari only after they were introduced as standard equipment on the 512 Boxer?