Good day All, A few more data Points: Chassis 47867 1983 512 BBi Sold for $247.5K USD https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/gooding-boxer-47867-at-amelia.516221/ Chassis 47871 1983 512 BBi Sold for $198K USD https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/1983-ferrari-512bbi-chassis-47871.681644/page-2#post-149482626 Cheers, Sam
and once again, the bb's are undervalued vs the rest of the ferrari stack. now i see 550's at $250-350 k.... whereas they made about the same number as the entire bb run, and they are very nice cars but not as significant as the bb's in ferrari history. i still believe this is because that model was never officially imported to the usa. and the usa is the one pushing the price structure. there are probably only around 300-350 of them in the usa, vs 2k+ of the 550 (and that again of the 575).
I would much rather have a BB than a 550. Zero interest in a 550 at current prices. Even had a poster of a Boxer in high school.
You guys are forgetting a very important thing. Cars are generational. The BB is a wonderful car, but there are not enough people left that are willing to put up with carbs, or and early difficult to service injected car. The 550..basicly turn key and go. Has good A/C, definitely a better and more modern interior, drives 100 times better, still a manual but can keep up to everyday traffic without issue. That is the car people will pay for. Love the BB but the 550 is just a better car.
you may go on a racetrack and see what is better. may be the 550 is faster, but the BB makes much more fun same will be sunday early morning, empty curvy up- and downhill roads. and then enjoy the breakfast
Ross, I may be wrong, but was it the first Ferrari with the wedge design, all hard, straight lines? Not sure if the 308 proceeded the boxer. I know the Dino's had timing chains, and the Boxers had gone to timing belts. I think the Boxers were an imposing, fierce, super car when introduced. I may still have the road and track magazine when it was introduced, I was certainly mesmerized by it. But I was certainly drawn more to the rounded lines of the Dino 246, than the straight lines, the wedge look. 3 years ago, I could have bought either, and I chose the Dino for that reason, and also ease of maintenance, no engine out service for belt change. Both are great cars, certainly.
yes, at least you bought the dino for a good reason - your personal taste in design. the boxer design preceded the 308 by 2 years. and PF basically cribbed some of his own design elements for the 308 from the bb. i recounted this elsewhere on the site, but my son found a box of old car mags at the storage depot, and i picked one up randomly - Car and Driver from 1978 - and there was an article about all the Mercedes cars for sale that year and their performance stats; the slowest was the 240td with a 0-60 time of 24.5 seconds, and the quickest was an SL i think with 9.4 seconds....and in the same issue they got to test one of the privately imported and homologated 512bb's, and the 0-60 time was 5.0 seconds.....which in 1978 must have seemed like a spaceship ! it is still a fearsome car, but it definitely requires a driver to extract the best of it - no lazy poseurs!
The boxer is not a good track car at all. That very high center of gravity sitting behind you is a real problem. The skinny tires, and the tendency to lift the front end at high speeds is scary..but I suppose it could be fun if you are expecting it. Driving the Boxer is a great treat on the street and highways. It's a wonderful car in all respects. But a track car it is defiantly not. The 550 would obliterate it on the track in reverse.
in stock form, this is entirely correct. with wide rims and sticky tires it changes considerably. but i am sure the 550 is still better.....
agree again also agree, and additional better brakes depends on what you understand under "better"? in a BB you have to work more and I always like to work
The 550 is subject to a review in the latest UK Classic Car magazine, here is an extract of the things to watch out for. They characterize it as a GT type of car, not really designed for track use. Image Unavailable, Please Login
On the track the BB512's shortcomings are obvious such as the brakes and wheels but the lack of an engine oil cooler is a big problem. Not sure what they did to the competizione 365's but it must've been extensive just to keep it together even it it finished mid-pack.
Yeah cars are generational to a point. Look at Dino prices those transcend generations. The BB lives in the poster wall shadow of the Countach from the same era which is the generational play. Compared at a BB(and ive had both) the countach is even more limited use and not quite as good a car primarily due to visibility transmision and motor although on handling steering feel its better. The coutach design is in your face fantastic, nothing like it before or after, the boxer esp has that classy timeless classic beauty that simply gets better with age. On the handling front, the period problem with boxers was tires. No one accuses the 512m of having handling questions and it is essentially the same platform just lengthened a bit. in my youth I spun my BBi once on TRxs on track and saved it once with a lurid skid on TRxs. The cure for Bbs is 17 inch wheels and modern rubber, 275 rears mans you're not going to worry about the rear end and you can go really narrow in front for great feel. 911s have more issues than BBs and those havn't been held back by that as classics. Thats because 911s can putter about. A Bb is really not acr for puttering about, sure it will do it, bu there is no joy for the driver in that, id argue that puttering about in a Bb is torture for the driver, and thats what holds these cars back today. BBs are appreciated as art to look at and when DRIVEN, in between where most peopel drive theyre hard work.. There is a market for simply great classic cars regardless of generation and the dino is a great example. The thing about a dino is they are easy to use, and can putter about so the potential market is quite wide, same can be said of say a 550, a Boxer you really have to be able to drive to enjoy. Having driven both 550 and boxer, theyre simply completely different animals. The 550 is a Gt car, it looks cool, it has a v12 and a stick, but mostly to drive its just a car. A modern SL amg mecedes would probably obliterate a 550, its also in the end just a car, although not a classic one as a 550 front engine v12 is . The boxer and its ilk are what used to be called sportscars and thats a whole completely different experience. If one is up to it, the rewards are something no 550 or sl can get close to. As for speed, we live in an era where realistically youre not exceeding 150 and even then not for any major length of time. 0-60 is for corvettes. So were talking in gear acceleration, throttle precision, etc. In my experience on road there is pretty much no car actually going quicker than a well driven BB car. Its true the driver of the pista is only using 60-70% of what it has to keep up with a 95% driven boxer. But the boxer driver is fully engaged and having the type of fun, which if you could have that in a pista it would have to be on a race track, and even then. How fast can one go on road, a boxer is easily that fast if you can drive it. If one still have that spark of youth energy, if the angry bullfighter in you is still alive, if dancing along the edge of the flame keeps you ALIVE. If you know working the motor, brakes steering all in balance to get the most out of it, inducing hyper attention so nothing else is on you mind and that appeals, then the boxer is the car, no 550 can offer that. Yeah its a limited market A 550, if we had continents to crush would be the car of choice, fast comfy luxury gt, easy to use. As a semi daily proposition the 550 wins hands down, traffic 550 hands down. I do agree thats what the bulk of todays market likes and looks for. . Makes sense most with the $ to buy these cars are old now, many cant exit a BB or theyre younger and simply unable to drive a BB. Also as alluded to above, to enjoy a BB you really need acess to the right roads on the right days, so its a limited use proposition. Throw all that into the mix and a BB is clearly a more limited market. Great wine is also a more limited use and market than beer. BBs because of their values are probably the only classic 12 still owned by some focused enthusiast drivers. When their value escalates their looks means the concurs world awaits, thats good for value, but sad for the passing of an era. When my track days are over due to physical restraints of age, Im hoping my BB and lotus Elsie will still keep my energy/flame alive into my 80s on road. If I cant get into or drive those, then yeah a 550 sounds great. I remember seeing a 250 lm that was owned by some old Japanese guy who walked painfully with a cane, he said of that car when he drove it the age and pain evaporated. Cant afford a 250lm get a BB.
Was thinking about this further and my post above. Spend the grater part of the year in Fl now. In Fl for sporty cars have my Gulia and 996 convertible porche which someone gave to me. I mention the last part about the porche because otherwise I wouldn't buy it. The roads here are flat and mostly straight. You can comfortably cruise down the highway at 80-100 but beyond that speed theres really too much traffic. Frankly often i take my 10 chev equinox because at those speeds at least its challenging. Having the boxer here would be near pointless. Id feel vulnerable between all the trucks and meth heads. Where would io go with it. Like others with nice cars use would boil down to a drive to some park to "show" the car. In contrast a 330 has ac that works, is fine in traffic and would work as well as a vette. One could easily take a cruise anywhere, go visit friends even go out to dinner. In short a 550 would work, whereas a Bb would not. Im willing to bet that in many places in the USA those conditions are similar. Untill boxers become desired as lawn art, the values are going to be stuck, simply too limited a use cycle for too many. As electrics become more pervasive though, the real he man cars will find their thing because if youre going ice then, might as well be the real thing. Also as Boxers start getting restored, things like pitons cams ac that works will expand the performance bandwidth and use cycle desire. Thats the long term trend, and one day boxers will become a thing. Thats the larger trend. Meanwhile the classic and sporty car market is off significantly, other than very significant cars. Thats a sign of the lux economy in general, buyers in the less than under1 mill to spend are becoming thinner on the ground.
Can you elaborate on why would the puttering around in the BB be torture? The BBi at least would idle and work at low speeds very well, the Bosch injection is really designed for idle and off idle emissions control, plugs won't foul and with the torque the shift changes would not be that frequent. Get an electric power steering kit, and it should be as usuable as any other injected classic car. Other than getting in/out over the sill at the low level of the seat, it would seem the car would be fine for running local chores, evening cruises and general puttering around. I was only a passenger in a BBi some years ago, it seemed an exciting but usable car, and felt much faster than it was going, which I think is a good thing for street use. I continue to think of buying a BBi. All modern exotic cars have performance way to extreme for meaningful road use. The BBi and other cars from the later 80's and 90's generally seem to have the sweet spot of some modern technology, usable performance and a viceral mechanical feel and in some cases styling that will never be repeated.
Ive used mine for running errands and the car copes fine. The clutch is quite heavy and not that modulated, not ideal for stop and go, youre really low and since there is zero crash protection also really vulnerable as is the bodywork. Methheads in minivans moms in suvs trucks where your ear is at the middle of their wheel. So easy to get body dunnage or crunched, there are no bumpers to speak of. There was an owner who got hit in the rear, as the fuel tanks are directly in front of the motor. the motor went into the tanks and he had a niche fore going, had to bash his way out through the windshield. A Etype or older vette is a far easier proposition. While I think it shifts great, thats when pretty much driven con brio, unless youre doble clutching or shifting near the redline as designed its a hard slow shift. Heat is a major issue, even if the ac is working the front glass is like a giant greenhouse. The suspension really only comes into phase with the road at speed, before then youre bouncing about listening to body and leather creaking. . So yes if youre happy being in a reclined sled with your head at truck bumper height, sweating in any sunlight above 60 degrees, happy to wield the shifter and clutch it works just fine, but where is the joy in that and whats the point. These are cars for the open road. Yes eps would make part of it easier, but what gets lost in the process. The Tr was designed for what you say, the ac works its a more visible softer riding car with crash protection. Imagine a harder much heavier at the controlls 308 with less ac and you get the picture. I always say the car will cope just fine with traffic just fine, you wont. Realistically you're tolerating traffic till you get to the open spaces. Depends where you live and drive. Then there is the whole startup procedure. Theres a lot of oil and coolant to warm. Strat the car come back in 5-10 mins. Once the needles come off the peg you can start driving, sloly then work the car up to speed over a numbet of miles. Modern supercars or sports cars are useable, thats their thing, and yes theyre way too fast to actually deploy and therefore not so much fun. Boxers are frankly a pita below 40 and really only start coming into their own above 60 or so. Best on big open sweepers on a not too hot day once the car is fully warmed. You know top of 3rd is in the 90 mph range and then you use all of 4th. If you're going don the highly you really want to be rolling somewhere north of 80. The car can do slow traffic its just a pita there, everything is heavy and hot then. Its certainly far more refined and useable than a miura or contach though.
In my opinion a Boxer should never be compared to a 550 if it’s about choosing one. They’re Ferraris and 12 cylinders that’s about as much as they have in common. They scratch completely different itches. I miss my BB terribly but could never have driven it coast to coast or encouraged my wife to take it out like the 550. Boxer is a poor man’s Miura get em while they’re “cheap.” If a car like that is your thing. Silver carb BB w black lower trim, yes please.
This is my 20th year of ownership of my 82' bbi. I'm still in admiration mode with it. Why? It has "exotic", "mystique" and "nostalgia" connected to it. Open the rear clam shell and you will see an exposed and artistic 12 cylinder, unlike newer models where the engine is hidden under panels as if the manufacturer is ashamed to show it or they are saying "Don't touch this". To me the bbi engine risers looks like the claws over the guys face in the movie Alien. The A/C is not strata freeze level but if operating properly will keep you cool not cold through most dog days of summer. The 80's was about hard work got you ahead to enjoy excess in a captalist society. Is that true today? No matter what you drive today in our nations roads, there is some hothead with a popgun and roadrage that will get you into trouble, if not a knucklehead texting while driving will. I had the oportunity to drive a friends 550 in 2009. I remember thinking to myself "how long would this car capture my passion". I never had to ask that question with the bbi. Image Unavailable, Please Login
No doubt we westerners are getting softer with time. I think Boxers Miurs and countachs were more a young mans car. Miuras were after all developed by 20 something's, Boxer was developed by Luca when he was late 20s early 30s and part of the race team. A 20 something back then wasn't playing video games and was by todays standards really wild. The opening scene of the Italian job(the orginal) is a great example of how these cars were to be used. Those roads and conditions no longer exist. There are some roads in Nc near the famed trail of the dragon that work, and I recently drove from Sante Fe up through colorado the roads on the New Mexico Colorado border are ideal, so much so its a life goal to take my BB there. As to BB vs Muira, a miura is a more beautiful far less developed car. I guess the difference is the BB can be driven reasonably on highway to the great mountain road, whereas the Mira was described as sitting in front of 6 chainsaws. The miura is imo the most beautiful me car yet built, and the BB second. For the old guys back in the day lambo made the 350 and then 400Gt and ferrari the 365. These me cars were designed to be balls out fast he man cars. Part of the problem of the Bb imo is ferrai then attempted with each iteration to soften the experience and make it more Gt like. Ive never driven a 365 boxer but did drive newman 512 koning, it was fantastic and imo the way the car is supposed to be. What these things need is cams pistons and wheels tires. That car was light at the wheel, almost lotus like, the way it simply pulled to 7k rpm building power all the way, you were happy keeping it between 5.5-7k rpm all along, that also meant it chewed through gears like a great track car. A stock BBI, its heavy at the wheel till 70 or so, and by 6k rpm just when it should be getting going it goes flat. Yes you get tractability down low, which is imprtant today, but you loose that final 30% of joy which imo really makes the car, or puts the car into the hall of greatness. I know of one car being redone now with stock cis but cams and pistons. Looking forwards to trying it this summer, I think thats going to be the way to go,a template for these cars as they get restored, totally stock looking, but woken up. Ive always said a properly sorted boxer is like a 288 for 1/10 the price and arguably better lookign/more classy.
