Great cars, not really that fast but exceptional drive about and tourers, plus as will all good citroens a spaceship that landed on earth, different to every other car ever in a good way. hard to find a good one, and cost way more than theyre worth to put right.
These were $125K cars not that long ago. They have had a nice run up before pulling back to current levels.
A nice Boxer is one of the few things that might make me consider cashing in on the current upswing in 355 prices, and think about trading up. As to the debate over the future of ICE cars, hopefully it parallels what happened in the 19th century when photography was invented. Painters of the time were worried that they'd be out of work and painting would die; instead its role in society and life changed to fit the new times. Painting became an art, a pastime, less of a tool or means of recording things. That's my hope for the future of ICE cars: let soccer moms take their kids to school in electric cars (I don't think anyone would lament the demise of the ICE minivan), or if you need what is basically an appliance to commute to work, electric's your car, but society will still see the value, history, and indeed "art" in many of the older, classic, ICE cars, and provisions will be maintained to let people enjoy them in a new role.
They were stuck in the 95-125k range for over a decade, pretty much from 94-2013. I think others are hoping that they wont stay stuck at 200k for a deacde esp as oters are runnign up.
Very different drive to a 355. Agreed on the rest of your poast, spot on. The classic car market and scene has been growing for decades, from just old cars appreciated by a few cranks, to something ethusiasts coveted(70"s) to art collectables etc now. Historic racing didnt exist untill the early 70s and then it was purely a hobbyist niche, now look at the goodwood revival. That trend will continue in all directions for classics. For thsoe who say that the young wont like ICE classics Ill say look at Rolex watches, or swiss mechanical watches in general, or vinyl music, all of which 30,yos love. And youre right, the ultitarian cars will get scrapped, the rest will be lovingly preserved. Maybe in 50 years non autonomous cars wont be allowed on roads, by then we'll have car ranches, not just racetracks, but places with little sections of highways, drive in movie theatres, and burger joints, it will be a recreation activity.
You will be able to buy gasoline. There are more horses in the Untied States today than there were in 1890. I realize part of this is due to a larger population, but all the support systems for owning horses still exist today in this country. Gasoline may well be cheaper, as the producing countries will see demand slow and will have to drop prices to be able to keep pulling oil out of the ground to keep their economies alive.
No doubt, I'm sure. I've never driven a Boxer, but I have a 1986 911 that is night and day different in terms of it's "analog-ness" compared with the 355 that's only 9 years younger (and still 26-years old). But man if Boxers aren't one of the most beautiful road cars Ferrari ever produced...while no one can predict the future, I can't see Boxers getting cheaper anytime soon, which has me thinking that all else being equal, now might be a good time to get in...
Sounds like you have the right idea. Yes a BB is very anaolog. A 911 is a good comparison, a BB is similar in that if you can use its uniqueness in terms of weight out back and ability to put near limitless power down off a corner its magic. Like a 911 easing off at the wrong point is fairly tragic. Back in the day a friend had a 964 porche and the BB was significantly quicker, so they have go. Its really evrything that makes a classic ferrari from the 60s great, with an abilithy and litheness to tackle bends of you can handle it, all wrapped in a italian design unsullied by regulation, a shape where they figured out how to put the people in after the form was decided. I mean why compromise beauty. We have seen Boxers approaching 500k before> Every now an again some car makes the leap to a new collector price level, the boxer has all the criteria to do so. Time was a Muira was 50% of a daytona, now theyre double. I can see BBs getting to daytona money. most important you just gotta enjoy driving it, Plus compared toa 355 a boxer will be near maintainance free.
you guys do realize that gasoline is a product of oil refining.....and along with gasoline (and other useful stuff), we derive ALL of our petrochemicals that are used to make plastic, from refining oil. so unless we figure out a way to make everything we use in our lives from something other than petrochemicals....i think we will be able to make gasoline.
Ross. From my uderstandign when you refine, there is the ability to alter the percentges of what comes out, kerosene gasoline and other petrochemical products etc, but you always end up with some of everything? I think what many here are saying is that regardless of the ability to refine gasoline, governments may just ban its sale or use in cars. And we know governments do love to ban and control. I dotn see it that outcome, for example porche is investing in making "synthetic" gasoline which is carbon neutral. Its interesting because boeing envisages that their future airliners will run on synthetic carbon neutral kerosense, so the research money and capacity is being brought to the fore. If it cost the equivalnt of $10 or $20 per gallon to run your BBI for a few hours on some weekends, we'd still do it, popel pay more than that per hour of runtime to go fishing on a 30ft centre consol boat. Like you I think once there is a big shift towards ev's well still find gasoline avialable, maybe less convenient to source, and more expensive but it will be there. We're nowhere near replacing diesel for marine use, light aircraft are getting reformulated led free. The capacity and need to produce petrolium fuels will still be around 100 years from now, and there will be synfuels too. With moms minivan and all the regular civillian transport an ev gasoline powered vehicles wont even be seen as a pollution issue. Eventualy maybe possibly I can forsee that self driven cars may be banned from roads, that could even happen somewhat sooner. Even then it wont be all roads, probably just major roads/highways. There are any number of car country clubs these days,, and expanding car rallies that run for days out in the hinterland, those activities will increase. Throw in 3 d printing and we can forsee that humans will be driving boxers 100 years from now. Tech may allow for the building of whole new cars or enough major compnents relatively easily. Rebuilding and maintaining classic cars is already an industry and as cable Tv will attest has a big audience, it too will grow. Great work for a post industrial future. Lets put some real numbers down too. California and Biden would like to ban the sale of new gasoline powered cars by 2035. Assuming thats passed and even possible(realisticaly not by 2035 for evrything), with a fleet life of not less than 10 years were talking ubiquitous gasoline availability ie gas stations on street corners untill 2045 at the earliest. Theres a wohle lot of Ifs to that 2045, so probably corner gas stations as we know them will be around in diminishing numbers out to 2060. Who knows with synfuels, there could be pump at many ev charging stations for those special sue vehicles, after that our great grandchilldren will be able to order barrels. Worst case the cars will be converted to run on alchohol, nat gas or Hydrogen, all of which the motors can burn. The real danger is when non autonomous cars are banned from roads, even then, ya'all will be able to play in the hill country of texas. Which cars will make the cut to be rpeserved, cause its goign to get expesive to keep. I can see any number of detroit Iron from the 50s-early 70s. Theyre great looking, easy to maintain and keep. Then there will be performance cars, a gated manual ferrari will be a special thing, just like prewar bugatti or duesenberg is. Liek nuclear warheads Im not sure that the shelf life of a F8 or 296 will be more than 30-50 years. All those can bus linked modules may not be worth it when you can just have a more evocative more fun BB. If people love driving open gate 12 cyl ferraris now, theyll still love it 100 years from now.
While everyone’s experience can be different, this is not what I found when shopping 2 years ago. The receipts I saw and the repair estimates given were substantial. Like a lot of cars from the era, it is probably the case where after spending a great deal of money to to get the car into shape, then ongoing costs are greatly reduced. I’m still catching up my Diablo to get to that point.
THIS Motors are robust, but were cam tensioners ever done at EO? mostly not. Brake calipers rebuilt somewhere along the 30+ years. Suspension, even if bushings ok shocks will be worn if not done, etc etc etc. I injection sorted? Yes once done, you can happily go 7 years of oil changes every year and rad/brakes every 2. I say 7 years because somewhere along that line the water pump will start to leak a little and oil leaks may appear, time for an EO. ill wade into the belt debate. Materials used now are way ebtter than in 1977. The big breaker of belts are the tesioner bearings, if those are ok youre fine. Now if a car sits for 2 or 3 years that may be an issue, but regular use 7-10 years is fine. So lest say you get a nice boxer due for an EO, spend 20-30k doing everything, all hoses, brakes, tensioners, waterpump etc and youre good for 7-10 years of home maintanance assuming you're capable of doing fluids and filters at home. 355's from what ive read, once the stickies, manifolds, valve guides and other bits are done are ok, but every 3 years its still belts?
1 gallon is about 4 ltr, and 10 US $ are around 8,50 € here in germany we have already prices for fuel with 1,75 € each ltr, so about 7 US $ per gallon
Yep, and those who love cool fast cars look at fuel and maintanance as the price for the entertainment of driving them. One could spend more money on a dinner than fuel for the day. Syntehtic c02 neutral may cost double still, the price for a days drivign entertainment may go from $25 to $75. As you point out thats not a barrier elsewhere already. High fuel cost may push people into evs for transport, but for a day of driving fun in a classic, its still relatively cheap and probably not the major yearly expense for the car. A centre consol fishing boat coast between 100-300k. they get 1-2 mpg and there are literaly 100,000 sold per year. As more events and uses for classic cars develop, demmand will rise. Time to arrange a Boxer run.
The belts should go the same 7 years as the boxer if the car is given the same care and quality maintenance at EO time. I did mine at 6 years and did a ton of while your in there stuff since it was my 1st time with this particular car. I plan on going 7 years before the next EO based on the comfort level I have with the prior work.
Makes sense. I had understood that as the revs were so much higher, a5 valve drag and the belts longer and thiner a 355 could not go as long. But tensioers and new belt material, no reason they shouldlnt last. One poster ran his 512 Tr 14 years no prblem, and he really ran the car.
Most do the 355 belts between 5 & 7. I think the key is having competent mechanics doing the work and not being cheap at EO time. They are really special cars when they’ve been taken care of properly. Like boxers, they’re not inexpensive to own, but are very special. I’ve driven a boxer once at speed and thought it was a very special car. To me it was like a slightly larger and heavier 3x8 with gobs more power. Loved it.
When i was buying mine back in 93 the aim was a 308Qv. Couldnt find a good euro one so tried a 328, to me it just didnt go. The salesman said lets try the boxer and it worked, there was actual shove, had the car ever since. I tend not to sell the fun cars, dont have my first car which was an 80 camaro, would like to, but it fell part. 2nd car was a series 2 supra which got stolen, third was an old cadillac 77 fleetwood which was awesome but had tinworm. Then there was a 90 vette, dont miss that one at all, a 70 vette, Iooked great, pulled great, but not worth keeping. 2 lambos, a Ct which wasnt compelling to drive, a 350 Gt which was nice but sold it when the values spiked. Superformnce Gt40 was a dream car but poor quality components and didnt hold up maybe sell the v6 exige cause its track only and maybe theres somehting better for that. The BB had since 93 its staying. the e46 M3 bough new in 05 its pristine and staying, the elise Ill never sell, thats just a special special car, if you havent had one somewhere along the way, youre missing out. The Gulia continues to amaze and impress, probably the single best new car all around, when the lease is up maybe Ill buy it, or get another. I think there is one more ICe car left in me before theyre gone. Given the above what would you get. Im thinking evrything from a c8 z06 to a emira to Gt3 to Mc20. And today im thinking the emira is going to have a version in a few years with the new 416hp amg 4cyl, that car below 3000lbs with the right track/street components and a simple remap might be it. I have trouble with the idea of fast modern 2 doors that you cant track, their speed and capability is such that if youre not goign to the track its more a Gt car, and I dont need that, plus below 9/10ths theyre boring and 700hp at 9/10ths on road other than for brief accleration is insane, so pointless other than for a giggle. The BB can be more or less driven at 9-10/10ths on road here and there and it requires your all to do so, its a fully imersive experience and no one is going any faster, i think a 355 is similar in that regard. You cant do 10/10ths that with a modern on the road other than for very brief acceleration bursts, so whats it for. Even the E46 BMW admitedly remapped but otherwise stock is really a bit much for the street if you actualy stretch it out, a birdie told me that during covid when there were no other cars on the road it could crest 170 and keep pulling and in normal times it loves that 80-120 zone. The Gulia is the 4cyl version 280 hp 320 ftlbs, ocasionaly I wish for a little more go up top, but youre already double to tripple the suggested speed by then. The elise is just right for backroads, you can just about use all it has, and its small and light enough to turn and brake in manner that can contain and avoid. My driving is either semi deserted backroads, hill and dale porbably not dissimlar to Hethel or the hills behind maranello, or highway. Maybe out west or in the hill country of texas its different, but seriously how fast can one go on road, not just laws, but also other elemts on the road too, theres a rational limit no matter how fast your car can go. Better to drive an older "slower" car fast and challenge/entertain yourself than hold back your f8 all the time. That reality makes the boxer such a great choice, because not only is it a 12 with open gate, but it can turn in a way a daytona cannot, a bb can work somehwere in the modern workd, a daytona is made to crush continents at speed, those conditions no longer exist in the norther hemisphere. A modern high power sports car for me, (I dont need a Gt plenty of fast sedans can do that), with lots of power and grip its gotta be able to dance on track where you can fully deploy it in a manner that truly entertains, and most moderns cant hack it on track, not really after a few laps. A road legal car, on track with all the right brakes and suspension from factory, thats a really narrow list, it probably is going to weigh 3000l-3600lbs depending on, in which case 500hp-600hp sounds right, thats a small list.
Ferrari says 3 years which is too soon and I have customers that go 7+ on them and 360's just like a boxer or TR. I wish the 355 belts fit a boxer, they're more robust than any flat 12 belt Ive seen.
I feel the same way. My fastest car is a Challenge Stradale. People think it’s slow these days, but that and the Scud are the last cars that can be driven on backroads quickly without a bunch of nannies and unusable horse power. I drove my 328 through the NC mountains last week and it was a ton of fun. 355 is great because it’s the last of the small cars and it was given horse power. After that the cars ballooned in size, horsepower, and electronic nannies. Also have a Dino that’s slow but feels fast = fun. I had a 86 Alfa Spider that had hot cams, headers, and air intake work. That was a really peppy little thing. Wish I could keep them all, but space and time is limited.
Pete, You were one of a very few people I relied on when I was debating to finally try and get one. We spoke on the phone for a good long time and your passion for the car was obvious to me. I think you have had it stuffed in the back of the garage unused for way to long. Why not get it in for service and then go out for a drive, if the passion is no longer there move it on. IMO, the market is bizarre on these cars, they don't generate the interest you would think for such a significant car, but many have never seen one, and way fewer have driven one. Regardless of what you decide, I'm grateful you got me to take the plunge. Best regards, Dave
It is a strange market. I’ve watched it for about 10 years. I used to think the engine out service and expense was what held the values down, but now I have no idea. I watched them go from 90k to 300k+ and back to where they are today. Based on age they should have already made the move. They didn’t make very many either. so what is it ? Maintenance expense ? Never sold in the USA ? Lack of market awareness ? Funky looking rear end (front and sides are gorgeous) Too many other choices / competition ?
328 through the mountains of NC sounds like the ticket, using the monentum and keeping the motor on the boil, playing the car and road in harmony like a fine musical instrument, thats what its all about. Love those roads. have driven though from TN to Asheville on backroads a few times. When my wife and I picked up the M3 in spratanbury Apil 05 it was just getting to be spring and we drove up the blue ridge parkway from asheville north. The car was new so I was keeping it below 5k rpm just rolling along. We were the only car on the parkway for maybe 2 hrs, just incredible fun rolling along and a smooth pace, then there was this park ranger cop, turns out the speed limit there was 35 or something ridiculous. But I hear the side roads are phenominal. , When the 360 came out, was traveling though London and first saw one parked on the street, was horrified how much bigger than a 355 it was. Back in the day a BB was a big car, now they look tiny. Tr's always had a big ass to me, no matter how you look at them. A small group of us do a fall and spring run though the hills of NW ct in our boxers all now runing 17 in wheels and modern rubber. This spring one of the Bbs was down so the owner brought his Tr, he said it felt to big and ponderous to keep backroad pace with the BB's, same ribber. Makes sense, same basic suspension but a BB is shorter and a few hundred pounds lighter, prob has better weight distribution too with the rad up front. I hear the dinos are just great to drive, some say nicest of them all.. Alfa spider, the 2.0 with injection and flat cams was damp squib, a shadow of its former self. Cams and headers must wake it up. Same as Newmans cams wake up a BBI. I think the first "sportscar" I evr rode in was a white duetto spider someone gave my father to try for day. Must have been 5 or 6 years old playing on the back vestigal seats as we rode out into the country. Space as you say is a problem, Im stashing cars all over the place. Sold our one house so have 6 in Ct and 3 in various parking garages and lockups, new place in Fl has 3 bays and 14 ft ceilings so 2 lifts may go in. Sometimes I think its best just to simplify down to 1 or 2,, but then theres always another one we just gota have/try and life is short.
I think it has a reputation as hard to drive, a dino 308, the ealrier V12s or something modern are far easier to operate. Sometimes car languish, Ghiblis were worth nothing forever, and for decades a muira was BB money or less. At some point the stars align. Were in a stange time now, the era of the instant collectable new car, makes no sense to me, but a market has been built. Next time there is acr frenzy and inventory of "known" items gets thin, some enterprising dealer will start touting the forgotten Ferrai classic, the boxer. Imo most buyers have no clue about how cars really are, theyre following a defined fixed set of investing rules, at some point the boxer will make it to that list. meanwhile they're inexpesive enough now to really drive hard and enjoy..
