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Boxer vs Countach.

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Fan512bbi, Oct 12, 2006.

  1. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The LM has much more than a few mods, over the street production car.

    A few items that I remember:

    rims
    tires
    machine work / modified engine and box
    exhaust silencer, or lack of
    exhaust headers
    F.I. system
    lowering and redesign of suspension
    gutted interior
    different glass
    modified body
    in addition to more mods
    etc...
     
  2. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The 365 California was also based on an F-1 engine design. - That is nothing but a heavy cruiser.

    Napolis lost a belt on his Testarossa. - It is an expensive gamble to take.

    That service is anywhere from $7,500-$12K. The cost depends on the shop rates, and the competency of the mechanic. Any additional service requirements, will be added to the invoice. - Same figures hold true for the Countach clutch change.

    The majority of exotics, are not used in the same fashion as a dd. Nobody should take traffic into consideration, when choosing an exotic.
     
  3. SMS

    SMS F1 Veteran

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    Although no mention of the Boxer, which I do truley love, below are some comments I wrote a couple weeks ago for the Countach. This is a drivers car, and a true driver makes some good comments below:



    I just re-read an article from June 2000 in Classic and Sportscar Magazine that I thought you will like in this section.
    Derek Bell drives 10 cars and comments as in all mag tests. I'd say Bell has some credentials as a driver.

    The cars:
    Countach 5000s carbs
    F-40
    Mclaren F1
    Miura
    BMW M1
    Porsche 959
    Pantera
    360 F1
    Maserati Bora
    Ford GT 40


    Here's a couple of quotes:
    "Out of all the cars here, I have to highlight the Lamborghini Countach-I was amazed how good it was. I'd driven one before, but not in the company of so many other cars so I got a real guage of it's abilities. It didn't roll much, went thru the corners well, didn't do anything spectacular and didn't have any horrible vices. Nothing totally suprised me on the day except this car."

    All the other cars merely lived up to expectations (or fell some way short of them): only the Countach exceeded them. "it makes you wonder why more fuss wasn't made of it as a pure driver's car when it was new. But it was probably because everybody was so caught up with the look."

    "If they'd spent time on developing the car, it could have been very, very good. I always thought that if someone at Lamborghini had taken the time to properly sort the Countach, it could have been a sensational road car rather than just a very good one."

    There are more references, but these set the theme. The article concludes with Bell saying he would own one (along with the F 40).

    Great picture too, if you have this issue it's worth pulling out and reading again.
     
  4. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    So its heavy and has a race bred engine in it,

    Napolis drove his TR in the snow until the subframe was rotten, not my idea of taking care of an exotic. Try doing that in a CT, lol.

    I do my own work and I would rather service a boxer over any CT, in fact I would do 2 boxer engine outs before I would want to do 1 CT just because they are a PITA.

    I take several things into consideration before buying any car, being able to have a teen drive the boxer tells me the car is very well designed and thought out carefully. I also dont need a CT to know Im a man, lol, my wife tells me that, LMAO!
     
  5. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
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    If you’re paying $7500 to 12K for belt changes, you’re getting screwed without even the benefit of lube!
    And then to add on to that price ‘While we’re there’ work as additional charges, is totally ridiculous!
    Parts and labor on mine totaled $4,748.25. That included belts ($57pr.), tensioner bearings ($275pr.), A/C and alternator belts ($73), water pump rebuild ($128), all fluids replaced including freon ($190), cam cover gaskets and seals ($48). Other work included replacing both axle and diff seals, oil drainback pipes, some small dents removed by the paintless dent guy, some hoses replaced, and a hundred bucks to a radiator shop. Parts total was $849.35, and Labor total was $3,375. Work was done at Bobileffs June 05.
    Boxers can be expensive for a number of reasons, but getting the belts done just ain’t that bad.
    I doubt you’d get a CT clutch changed for anywhere close to this amount! And it’s not that I dislike CTs, because I do. I think they look wicked! But I doubt driving a CT evokes any more emotion, or visceral experience than a well sorted Boxer! Just because I can see what’s behind me doesn’t make it a granny car. And I don’t remember anyone saying a carbed Boxer running through the gears sounding wimpy!
    I’m glad you guys like your CTs. I enjoy my Boxer, and I’ll look for you in my rear view mirror!
    John
     
  6. J Ingram

    J Ingram Formula Junior

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    Thanks for the info on the belt change. Bobileff will be doing mine in a few years.
     
  7. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I think not. - Not with my Hayabusa. LOL
     
  8. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
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    Good one Ralph, as I have absolutely no clue as too what a Haya-whatever might be, be it four wheel, two wheel, or maybe no wheels at all!
    None the less, I’ll keep an eye in the mirror, and if I see something that might be one, I’ll assume it must be you!
     
  9. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Its a bike, I had a GSXR1100 which is a very fast bike but I have to say Ralph would smoke it and any car.
     
  10. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
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    I am getting a new ZX-14 Kawasaki shortly, the fastest production bike in the world, see your Hayabusa in my mirrors.

    Concerning the BBLM they were the last of the BB racers so the most modified, yes they had some basic re tuning but they are still a production Boxer motor and chassis slightly modded which anyone can do today with a Boxer engine including adding Lucas FI, the Comp BBs were much closer to stock other than a few mods.

    I am not aware of any suspension redesign with the BBLMs other than springs/shocks they still use production unequal length wishbones along with the 4 shock/spring set up in the rear and front springs/shock setup.
     
  11. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I dont think the Countach would have had a rotting subframe at all - its a rather strong tubular chassis... just your own stuck-up and rather snooty "Ferrari is Holier than thou" opinion.

    I dont think you are experienced at doing Countach engine outs, and I think youre therefore not comfortable doing them, thats why you consider them a PITA. Bobileff does both, and has no preference of one over the other...but, the key is he IS experienced with Countachs. Again, your comments are purely just your own blinkered "Ferrari is better than everything else" opinion.

    Having a serious sports car be so soft and easy to operate that a teen can drive it is an irrelevant factor in choosing a supercar for most, and bears NO relation to the fact that a car is well-designed or thought out carefully (teenagers can drive Yugos easily) and yet again it is just YOUR opinion as to what a good sports car is.

    Nobody needs a Countach to tell themselves that they are a man (their gender preference determines that! LOL). But it DOES take a real man who is not a whiny, complaining, insecure so-and-so, to appreciate, operate and enjoy one. Ive been around them for a long time, and without exception, the only Ferrari owners who also have & appreciate a Countach, fall into the latter category.

    As for the Boxer, whilst we are spouting our varied opinions, no matter how "well thought out and well designed" it might be in your opinion, my opinion is that I find them a tad boring, both in looks, and for what they are. Just my humble opinion.

    Joe
     
  12. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    No question the Boxer's a softer, less visceral car. Ask Bobileff who does your work and works on BOTH Boxers and Countachs. He will tell you that a Countach is a MUCH more emotional experience, and he will also tell you that you will not see a well-tuned Countach in the mirrors of your well-tuned Boxer....in the performance area, your mechanic will tell you that they are about the same.

    Joe
     
  13. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    What, something's faster than a Ferrari Boxer???....how....how can this be???

    Joe
     
  14. TiAmoVeloce

    TiAmoVeloce Karting

    Nov 17, 2003
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    So. California
    As far as working on them, I have done so on both my BB512 & LP400. I can't say either is any more difficult to work on. A Boxer has easy access to the clutch & starter but the CT does not have cam belts to be concerned with. Personally I feel the CT is a better choice in this regard. The CT is awkward to access the engine compartment from the sides for things like aircleaners and the bodywork is somewhat fragile. The clamshell Boxer makes for easy access or removal. If you like the car you get over it and accept the constraints of the design and what rewards you get in return.

    Having both, I feel the Countach is a much more stimulating car in many ways. I am only referring to the two models I own.

    A Boxer has the feeling of a car you drive. The LP400 you become a part of. I have been in fighter aircraft and an LP400 is much more like a cockpit than a cabin. They are very different in this way and one is aware of it as soon as your sitting there.

    Why all the concern about racing BBLM's? Are any of you going Vintage Racing with your Boxers? These are street cars and wonderful ones at that. If you want the racecar experience buy a vintage racecar and spend some time on a track. It is a wonderful experience and a pickup usually doesn't appear out of nowhere in front of you.

    And yes, a Hayabusa will dust us all but everyone will be smiling in the end. So does it really matter? Personally, I find down on the tank in 6th gear with the tach at 15K to be one of the best feelings in life, just like the resonance of an Italian 12. Glad to hear others here like two wheels also.

    The Other Ralph
     
  15. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
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    Dear CT attack dog,
    Wow, three smartass replies in 25 minutes must be some sort of record!
    And I even said I liked the damn things!
    What I didn’t say, or insinuate, was that a Boxer is the fastest thing around. But then it’s probably difficult to read accurately with saliva frothing up around your eyebrows.
    Any Z06 or hot ricer with a fartcan will trash either a Boxer or CT. So what? We’re not talking current cutting edge technology with either of these cars.
    I think it would be a blast to get dusted off by Ralph and his Haya-whatever. You’d, no doubt, think it your duty to run him off the road to keep him from doing it.
    Enjoy your CT, and I’ll continue to enjoy my Boxer, and look for you in my mirror!
    John
     
  16. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Irritation and anger are emotions, be more specific about what emotions he experienced. Maybe he was swearing at the CT calling it a piece of crap as he beat the pi$$ out of it. That would be an emotional experience that i dont have with my boxer. I just get pure joy and bliss as I hang my swollen snobbish head out of the window because it wont fit in the boxer cabin. LMAO! :)
     
  17. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
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    We had a run recently with a few Lambos including a CT my 355 made it look like it was standing still while accelerating away from it on a 360' on ramp, however the 355 is like a Cadillac compared to the BB when driving it and I'll find myself turning the stereo on many times in the 355, bought a top of the line Alpine CD with remote for my BB over a year ago and still have not cared to install it, boring is in no way a description of a Boxer.

    Concerning the CT as in Sheehans statement they are 45 minute cars then you want out, I think it was William H here that referred to the CT as a car for masochists.
     
  18. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Sorry,
    I cant help myself (from laughing too) when dealing with Boxer guys who think they have the best car God created. Yes, Ill enjoy my Countach, but perhaps the point I refrained from making earlier is that there are other interesting cars besides the Boxer. When Id like to experience the mid-engined V12 concept with clamshell-style opening bodywork, Ill go for my Miura SV over the Boxer anytime...and the saliva (drool in this case) will prevent me from noticing the Boxer...LOL.
    Look the Boxer is a great car, but lets face it, its not as great as some here would make it out to be....
    Joe
     
  19. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for the honest description. That sounds about right for you... and its nothing to laugh at either.

    Look, they are both great cars, but lets face it, the air of blind superiority in the Boxer camp is so thick you could cut it with a knife! Now THATS something to laugh at.

    Joe
     
  20. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I agree with you Sarti, the Boxer by itself is NOT boring.
    However, when compared to the Countach experience (just ask anyone who owns BOTH) it is relatively tame... that was my point.

    Joe
     
  21. Steve B

    Steve B Formula Junior

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    Time to stop. They are both great cars.
     
  22. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    A Miura is a nice looking car, too bad the engine and gearbox share the oil, that's a major screw-up that a russian car would have.

    To put it another way, ferrari's are crap in a lot of ways its just that lambos are even more so, dont hate me for realizing that :)
     
  23. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Youre absolutely right, Lambos are quite, shall we say, "fragile" because of the way they were engineered, and no, I cant hate you for realizing that because youre 100% correct.

    But, most Miura SVs have what we call a "split-sump". Engine and gearbox do not share oil..... I suppose in a way thats why they are so valuable (4968 sold for $675k, and another is selling right now at $750k).

    Hey, I even LIKE Boxers too! Its just nice when the "Boxer is the best & greatest car in the world" thing is toned down a bit...

    Joe
     
  24. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I think you guys need to scrap both the CT and the Boxer and by a real 12....(The TR)



    ** Runs away very fast with his flamesuit still on ** LMAO !
     
  25. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    This from a guy who is looking for a wimpy V8 car, LOL, the 12 too fast for ya? now Im running away!
     

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