Boxers are undervalued

Good day,

Understood. Hopefully you are correct that the recent buyer of the car did his due diligence and/or the mechanical items were addressed prior to the auction's conclusion.

Cheers,

Sam

 

yep and that means boxers need to be more like 500k cars where the 100k rehab can be built in and all cars rehabbed.

right now boxers are stick in a nether zone like ghiblis were in the 90s and early 2ks.
Not expensive enough to rehab and too expensive to rehab vs their value

 

I bought a Daytona about 10 years ago and prices were quite similar to where Boxers are now and I remember having similar issues when it came to finding a good car. There was a ton of variation in condition from car to car and very few people had actually taken the time to make one really right partially because the resto cost relative to value was so out of kilter.

And to be really honest, Daytonas had a really poor reputation at the time and I have to believe it came from so many being in subpar condition (sound familiar?). In time as people properly refurbished and restored various Daytonas, their reputations (and prices) ultimately climbed.

 

Yes, I think thats it.

Curious how you compare the boxer and Daytona. in period it seemed that maybe there was disappointment with the boxier after the Daytona, from what i read others said its because people who drove Daytona's didn't understand the boxer, it was no faster, less of a Gt, less comfy, but it could handle and was more suited to slower road conditions and mountain passes as opposed to crushing continents.
Course many didn't like the Daytona in period cause the Muira was already ME and the Daytona was bigger and heavier than its predecessor.

 

The Daytona is another car stuck in a different valuation range, between $600k and $900k. Perhaps the market for early 70s cars is shrinking, but that may be too general a statement. I have recently passengered in both a Daytona and a Miura SV. While both were perfectly restored, well set up and very well driven, I now understand why one costs 2.5+ times the other, even if they seem comparable on paper.

When compared to a Daytona or 246, the BB seems inexpensive, reflecting their reputation as being complex and expensive to maintain, but that is relative (I assume Daytona and Miura maintenance are comparable to a BB). Perhaps it is a relative lack of familiarity; most people have also never seen a BB or even know what it is. I still get asked what year my '308' is.

Miuras, F40s and pre-anniversary, carb Countaches meanwhile, seem to have avoided this anonymity trap, and have gone up in value.

 

They’re hard to compare because it’s complicated.

It would be pretty easy to say that they’re completely different cars. However, in the grand scheme of Ferrari’s, they’re not that different.

The driving position isn’t too dissimilar. They are both pretty gentlemanly cars and the 12 cylinder character is quite evident in both. I think they’re both fairly sporting at a brisk pace on the roadway but also equally at home cruising down the boulevard.

Yet there are tons of differences. They are styled completely differently to each other partially due to engine placement. The boxer has a F1 derived flat 12. The steering feel is quite different on each.

One thing they both share identically with each is a deep sense of occasion when you drive them. Even at 10 mph, they just feel super special. And the new Ferraris don’t have that.

I guess I will say this. I think I own the right number of Ferraris for me and the right models. If I ever decide to add one more to my small group, I’ll probably buy another Daytona.

 

Especially as a passenger.

 

Well, the experience is what distinguishes them. I was not expecting too much from a 50 year old Miura, but was amazed with how powerful it was and how well it handled. This example just finished a major restoration and was being checked out prior to its delivery. In addition, a certain V. Balboni took me for the drive, on roads he knows terrifyingly well near St. Agata. Essentially, the SV is characterized by unusual sound (you hear a lot of fantastic intake noise), flat handling and the sheer aggression of it. It left quite an impression.

The Daytona meanwhile is smooth, quiet in comparison, comfortable and, well, slightly ponderous. In fairness to the Daytona, we were hitting speeds in the Miura which the Daytona's driver (who is a far better driver than me) did not try to match on public roads. The Daytona is quite polished, and from what I hear, happy to drive long distances (I could definitely take a long trip in it as a passenger); the SV is comparably raw, uncompromising (i.e. slightly uncomfortable) and extremely mechanical, which heightens the experience. One is a car, one is more like a motorcycle. While the differences in personality may have been expected, I was amazed at how well a well set up SV simply works as a sports car, i.e. accelerating, braking and cornering; it's limits are quite out there.

If you had asked me two weeks ago to choose one I would have easily preferred the Daytona, but 30 minutes at speed in the SV really opened my eyes. I now understand why people spend the extra to get one.

 

That explains a lot.

 

Good day All,

Another Data point for a driver level BBi:

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/1983-ferrari-512-bbi-chassis-42971.659734/

Sold a few days ago (2022-05-13) at the Bonhams Auction in Monaco for €184,000 inc. premium ($193.92K USD).

Cheers,

Sam

 

The Miura v Daytona. Remember the 90s when a Miura was stuck at 1/2 a daytona.
Things changed for lambo when Audi bought it. The Lambos became ab brand, and had lots of sales, that made them collectable amongst a wider audience.
The Miuyra though transcends for another reason, its quite simply art, arguably one of the top 5 cars designs ever.
The Daytona, its a front endined v12 ferrari from the enzo era.

The Boxer. Thats a car people didn't know. It was not featured in the Italian job(miura) cannonball run CT, or a TV show like Miani Vice(Tr)
So those who know what a boxer is are the "real" enthusiasts. Thats what 20% of the collector car buyers.

As with the Ghibli, boxers are stuck in a nether zone. At some point it becomes recognized cause its great and beautiful, but it snot yet on the collector check list, other than for people with real taste. Maybe it will be in some movie, or maybe well start seeign pictures of these cars, side profile with the front and rea clips open, as with a Miura the style part trick.

If you're talking mid engine road gong Ferraris. the beautiful ones are the dino, 308 boxer 288 and 458.
Dinos are reckognized and full price, 308s already fetch a good porce for a car thgey made +20k of and is quite slow, the 288 is special and ultra rare eyt still of the 308 design, the 458 is simply a modern classic. That elaves the Boxer, a design without compromise to legislation, the last raw he man ferrari and its a 12. its one of one, it just needs to catch and were not there yet. But then for a long time neither were ,miuras or Ghiblis.

 

I did this with my BB about 6 years ago several times and when I parked for example at the bakery the people seeing the car and asked if it needs such a car to buy fresh bread on sunday morning. I just came back from a 2 hours trip early in the morning.

so how you do it it is wrong and in germany the greens getting more and more friends, makes no fun anymore ! ! !

 

I don't think brother Sammy helped the cause! Its funny, in the day I liked that song (and still do) even enjoyed the Boxer in the video. Now it seems solidly campy and even regrettable. Wonder where that tire-burning Boxer is today?

I've enjoyed reading the opinions here regarding the Boxer's undeserved anonymity and associated market malaise. I had forgotten - if I was ever even aware - that Miuras were half the Daytona's price. Truly those cars go into the 'art' category vs a more subdued and elegant Daytona.

Though this doesn't necessarily speak well for the market, for the 9 years I had my BBi, I drove in a relatively small town that almost never saw Ferraris of any sort. The Boxer was absolutely under the radar, scarcely getting the sometimes-dreaded gas station attention (although I generally welcomed it). Whereas my 512TR or Ford GT would get cell phones out the windows and have a minor gathering on occasion.

For me, the less obvious car was a bonus, yet I feel this contributes to its less dramatic appreciation.

 

I know that feeling. My BB lives in Toronto; I get asked at gas stations what year my Pantera is…

 

Sammy still owns it, he features it occasionally on TV shows he does.

 

My Ford GT gets some gas station attention (which I don't care for)......but the car that gets people gathered around asking questions and taking pictures every time is the Diablo Roadster, I need to start taking tranquilizers before going to get gas.

 

I think we can say that the Boxer is the connoisseurs choice. And in the crass age ion which we live not many real connoisseurs of anything.
But sooner or later the mob catches on.

To me a Boxer needs two things to make it really appeal, modernish rubber which is now easily achieved with stock looking wheels,(not too wide infront so it becomes lithe too) and arguably more power esp up top.
One needed only to drive Newmans Koning esp after 5k rpm to realize what great power and some cams does to a boxer, getting rid of TRXs is like getting rid of shoes that hurt ones feet.

 

I've given serious thought to buying a Boxer twice, but ultimately choose something else. The first time it was about HP, metric tires, and no open air option.

The 2nd time was strictly about condition and the maintenance requirements....every car within $50k of my absolute budget limit (first $200k, then up to $230k at the end in late 2019) also needed $30-50k of work to make it into a good driver grade car. That takes alot of comittment that most just aren't interested in if you can't pony up for the top of market cars.

Would still love to have one, a real high-water mark for Ferrari bridging the gap between classic and modern.

 

Speak to dave white on this forum, he has a black one in proper operating condition, with modern tires, that may work in your price range.