Boxers surpassing Daytonas in value $$

Noticed a comment by Bill Noon of Symbolic he belives Boxers may someday surpass Daytonas in value, I agree but you never know the classic F car market is irrational just look at the Dino $$$ which is a Fiat, IMO Boxers have several imporant points over a Daytona, first they were Ferraris first mid engine road car, (Dino is not a Ferrari its a Dino), the motor design direct from multi winning World Contructors F1 car the last Ferrari road car with a true F1 based motor, its low, wide and mid engine like a 60s Ferrari race car with sublime looks pure exotic vs a Daytona, the Daytona was not well recieved with the Miura taking the spotlight the BB was Enzos response. I do like the Daytona but it never stirred exotic euphoria dreams and excitement as seeing a Boxer in the flesh the first time as a kid, I found one in a parking lot alone it was metallic dark green and just stared for about 10 minutes in the early 80s. A race car for the street what other F road car has crazy opening decklids as well?, F40 not the same either

 

I wasn't sure where you were going with that, and though many will espouse reasons to rebut, I happen to agree. If nothing else, I'm glad to read some good news, and less of "the market is going in the toilet for the 19th time today" stuff.

I'm a huge fan of the Daytona, love its looks, but from owners I hear not so much praise. So, I'd rather look at one than own one probably, except for the current 'investment' ranking.

In time though, the Boxer may indeed emerge as the 'exotic' classic Ferrari to own. It sure had me from the FIRST time I ever saw one. After a year, I still look at mine and think, 'Wow, what a car'. Not many I've done that with.

Thanks for your interesting post.

 

The perceptions and values of cars evolve over time. When the boxer came out people were apprently dissapointed because its motor did not hit any harder than a daytona, it was cramped. At the time of the daytone, late 60's there were long open stretches to excecise cars, and a daytona was a continent crusher, the boxer was lesss comfortable and the driving experience from a handling perspective was not understood by that generation of drivers.

Today the Daytona is a big open road car that really only comes into its stride over 80. Realisticaly there are no open roads or unrstricted roads to crush continents in these days. So a daytona while being the last of the classic 12's is really a heavy car that has limited opportunity to run.

While the Boxer may have been cramped by comparriosn and no faster in period, these are not primary considerations for a classic, weekend toy today. What the boxer can do is handle which means fun on the corners much more relevant today. Boxers and daytonas both were designed with an eye on dramatic asthetics so their shape unlike moderns is pure and like many things Italian sensual. There are also the other points mentioned in this thread the real race car for the road design opening clips etc, in this sense a boxer is more pure ferrari than a daytona. A boxer is like a reallemans car that is usable on the road. While being usable in the modern context it is still a classic.

Basicaly a boxer has all of the classic cues of a daytona, is more of a race car for the road than a daytona, in this sense it is a more modern 275 4 cam and a boxer is more fun and usable in the modern context. Therfore the premise that a boxer can surpass a daytona in value has subjective and objective merrit. All that is required now is for the collector class to understand what the conniseurs already know. This may take some time. But lets not forget that 5 years ago a Lusso was a 125k car, and apart from looks is not really that great.

One negative for a boxer though is that it is considdered difficult and intimidating to drive and this may limit the pool of poetential owners.

 

I am really sick of the gloom and doom stuff posted here as well, markets go in cycles, seems some take delight in others misfortune, those that are so negative "the sky is falling" here should just quit flapping there jaws and get it over with take a dive off a bridge or building as some did in '29

 

In 85 i had an italian contact look for either a Daytona or a Boxer in Italy. My budget was $25k [50,000,000 Lire]. Before he embarked on his search I had the opportunity to drive both extensively. Although there are many features of the Daytona that make it the ultimate Italian muscle car e.g. big V-12 up front, upright seating, visibility and an endlessly long hood, I found the Boxer so much more fun and easier to drive. Initially I wanted the Daytona. But after driving both the BB was the choice.

So I sold my GTC for $21k to Dick Fritz of Amerispec, found a silver/black 76 carb BB in Ancona, flew to Italy to inspect, bought it [sounds easy but it wasn't] and drove the heck out of it in the old country for a couple of weeks. Shipped it back to the states, kept it for 15 years and loved it.

If you look at the comparison of street driveablilty to me the BB wins hands down. However the BB is not a great track car in my experience. Never driven a Daytona on the track. From an aesthetic/stylist view in my mind it's a toss-up. I guess that the success in the racing versions give the Daytona the pedigree edge. That may be the difference in the value department...........which matters little to me. I just wanna drive and enjoy.

 

OR, WHAT IF - WHAT IF... they BOUGHT some of these "remarkably low priced can't believe how cheap they are now" deals? I'm not poking fun if you really CAN'T do that, but if the deals are there and you've always wanted one, make a move.

Seems the stock market took a 50% groaner and these cars have 'only' dropped in the 25-30% range PLUS they're fun to own. I don't know about you, none of my stocks are "fun" to own. Less fun when they suck. My Boxer is just as much fun worth 'x' as it is worth 'y'. Yes, I'm a caveman economist.

SCANTERA, awesome post. What a great sounding 15 years you had with that car! If envy wasn't a sin, that'd be the word I'd use. Okay, envy it is!

 

IMO the Boxer beats the Daytona in all catagories except production numbers ( a core basis for valuation in the Ferrari world ) and in the engine out requirement for a major.
PS; I also love to open the clamshells for those that have never seen the car and watch the reactions.
Daytona; pop the hood.

 

My 2 liras ?

It is the relatively hi production #'s of the Boxer (in relation to 1960's F cars). Quite a few of the Boxers were new, when the F car market was hot. Some owners simply parked the car and trashed the key, while the investment increased in value, inside of their garage (late 80's market). Another issue, is that the car is stuck between the classic and modern F cars. It is not at home, with both 1950's and 1960's F cars. The latest and greatest crowd, who feel a 360, is old news, do not look at these cars either. These are reasons why the car (in my opinion), has not exploded in value.

Good points ?

They could no longer build a handbuilt car like that today. It would cost too much money. This is the last of the last. The cosmetic looks are awesome. Most new cars are all fugly.

 

I must agree with the comments here. I've been fortunate enough to have owned a few Daytonas and a couple of Boxers, still have a BBi. The Daytona is a terrific car, all the right sounds and a nice comfortable interior. Brakes were the weak link though. Tracking one immediately brings that into focus. The Boxer on the other hand is drop-dead exotic looking. So low and wide, and as mentioned, the clamshell opening front and rear always draws a crowd. I sort of like the "cramped" interior... it's all business in there. As for the newer cars, I nearly bought a 575M, but when showing photos to a friend, his comment was, "That looks just like a Monte Carlo SS." Well, that was a deal breaker for me. Cheers to all you fellow Boxer owners. Take pride in owning a Ferrari that will never be mistaken for anything but.

 

So true, had a little old lady ask me if my BB was new, didn't really have a clue but definately recognized it as a Ferrari, the newer 2000+ F cars have gotten bubulous and blend in, even Hyundais have a resemblence to new Ferraris they are after all designed by Pinninfarina, BBs look like nothing else but a Ferrari- regards

 

Do BB's deserve more recognition? Absolutely yes! But will they get it? I think, yes, but slowly. Some of that we have already seen in the rising prices over the past couple of years. A nice 365 was $70k only 4 years ago, that certainly has changed. But I think Ralph has good points here. The BB is struggling with several key issues, most of all its place in history:

1. The oil crisis and general malaise of the early '70ies recession really dented the image of the super car. Speed limits were enforced for the first time all across Europe. The roads got much busier. The '60ies Ferraris hark back to the golden age of the motor car with relatively little restrictions. The styling changed and became very angular. Just think of all the supercars of that era - they just fail to realise the same prices as their predecessors (Countach - Miura, Maserati Bora, etc.). The deadline seems to be 1971.
2. By the time the world started to really appreciate supercars again, the BB/BBi was still in production and would remain so until 1984. By that time, quite a few had been produced (around 2,300) and it had been in production for almost 12 years. Even though we know the difference between a 365BB and a 512BBi, almost nobody of the general public does (and even within Ferrari fan circles there are a lot who can't spot the difference). So in the early '80ies, the BB was regarded as a relic. As the market exploded, they were not old enough to be well regarded, and not young/modern enough either. I think they still hurt a little from that.
3. Although to me, and any other Boxer owner, they look very different from the 3x8, for the general public they do not. They think it's Magnum's car and as such they don't understand why it should be 5 times the price even if it has 12 cylinders.
4. I agree with the fact that a lot of people have misunderstood the concept of the Boxer, and to be fair, Ferrari didn't place it well. It was launched as the new king replacing the Daytona but it's a very different car in concept. So although it was the new 12 cylinder top-of-the-range, a lot of people preferred both the styling and the handling of the Daytona.
5. Even in Ferrari circles, there is a chasm between classic and modern, and it is being perpetuated by quite a few of the ones on the other side of the fence. As an example, I am not allowed to attend classic meetings of the Ferrari Club Holland in my 34 year old Boxer - it is the first model they label as "modern". It irks me.

But slowly, people are beginning to understand and appreciate these cars. The styling becomes more and more appreciated, and to me at least the Boxer is one of the all-time great designs. And I think that prices will never really down again to the silly levels we saw before (like twice the price of a 328). I've noticed in recent years that articles on the Boxer are becoming more numerous. This is a very positive sign.

I'm a very proud Boxer owner and hope to remain one for a very long time. I also have had the question asked if mine was new (asked by a male, actually) - just goes to show how many people don't care about cars at all. And yet, they still know what a Ferrari means. Long may that continue.


Onno

 

I grew up in the 70s, as a kid the supercars were the Boxer, Turbo Carrera and Countach, the Daytona was an old Ferrari front engine, I remember seeing the Gumball Rally in theatres and was disappointed they picked an old style Ferrari not the new mid engine supercar the producers did it IMO as they wanted a 2 convertibles for the main characters, I think the Boxer was extremely well received those lucky few that owned them were the super rich of the day, there was an old Car and Driver article or R&T can't remember they brought a BB to a grade school and it cleared the whole school out to the parking lot to see it they had photos of 100s of kids around the car cant see a Daytona doing that then. this was a radical car at the time only the super exotics were mid engine.

Only from the rear does a BB in anyway resemble a 3x8 to lay people IMO, thats from a distance with it parked,now a 288GTO I can see many thinking its a 308, hear a BB scream by no mistaking this is a serious car with a different engine unlike anything on the road then or now anyone can see that, I will say BBs have been a cult car with the knowledgeable F car enthusiest, not much talk of them by the media or starring roles in movies in there day for the general public get a chance to know the car plus there rarity that you never saw one on the road, seems in movies in the 70s everyone was convertible crazy so they used the glam Daytona Spider in as mentioned Gumball Rally, Star is Born, Miami Vice etc, the BB was more of a race car and still is.

This was one of Enzos last defiant make it how I want cars, he refused to modify the styling of his quote beautiful car to conform to US bumper standards of the day nor the EPA requirements reducing performance, he only planned on making a few BBs and Europe would satisfy that demand

 

The Boxer finds itself in an awkward position of being the last of the Carburated Ferraris yet one of the first of the injected.

It is to my knowledge the last of the hand formed aluminum Ferraris. Wasnt the Daytona steel ?

And a special thanks to Enzo's arrogant stubbornness for not complying with US regulations therefore cutting out the worlds largest market and thus limiting production numbers to where they are now.

The Boxer is my favorite street Ferrari of all time other than the 250 GTO and the F40.

 

Yeah Daytona was steel except front and rear hood, they did make an all alloy race Daytona though

 

"If envy wasn't a sin, that'd be the word I'd use. Okay, envy it is!"

AHudson......envy back at you......a Boxer sporting a black exterior is the gorgeous!! Not only does it show off the curves well, but going black softens the large opening above the rear wheel - my only gripe about BB styling.

At some point a BB will re-enter my humble collection. Probably won't be a BBi as I prefer the carb version. Never driven a 365 BB, but many tout it's raw and mean character.....a good thing in my mind. I live in FL and I am very familiar with the fact that the cockpit of Boxers are like saunas in the jungle in the summer. Interior comfort is one thing that I might be able to deal with some mods. But I have heard that the 365 has engine overheating issues. That won't work here. Can anyone chime in on this oft-mentioned malady of the 365? Mr. Badurski?

 

I nearly bought a Daytona a few months back. But I didn't . Why? Because I really am not sure about the looks and their current pricing. Compared to my Boxer it was twice the price but didn't feel as exotic. I just love the way you can see all the engine in the boxer and the mclaren f1 style front really is cool.

Daytonas have risen dramaticlly in value very quickly but are now sitting unsold . I stiil think the Boxer is underpriced at its current level and is a good long term investment - better than a Daytona. And in the mean time is just fab to look at and drive.

 

Boxers wont overheat in the Summer if you use the Aux cooling system; drive with the heater on.

 

As oft said about older Ferraris.......the heater works great in the summer.....and a/c is fantastic in the winter

 

outstanding post.

 

There is some truth to this. When I first got my 365bb in 1984, it did run a bit hot in the Summer months, often to the point where she'd come close to overheating. However, after going "completely" through the cooling system, doing all of the of the factory updates...and reducing the clearance between the pump impeller and the housing through some custom machine work, I frequently drive this car on the hotest of Summer days, with no issues what so ever.

Although this was a modestly lengthy and expensive process, the end result is that I can drive the car anytime...without fear of overheating.

David

 

So basically you turned it into a BBi

 

How long have you two been married again?

Regarding the overheating problems, I think Newman's post on Boxer clamshells in the Buyers Guide sticky thread says it all. My Boxer was built in June of 1974, the first summer during its production run. It is number 17977. #18135 (60 after mine) has a clamshell with more louvres - is this coincidence, now that the Italian summer must be on full steam? I think not!

Onno

 

My first Boxer, 17403, is shown as the tenth car built for production in Nathan Beehl's book. Got it from Joe Marchetti, God rest his soul, what a guy. It was amazingly fast, but as an early car it did have a few issues. With only two cooling fans while driving in hot Chicago summer traffic, it tended to run pretty hot. Nevertheless, it was a joy to drive fast. Get her out on the open road, and hang on for the ride of your life.

 

Exactly, but without the "choir boy" injection system....

 

And you were so close to perfection, pity.