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430 Brake Upgrade Questions

Discussion in '360/430' started by notaporsche, Mar 23, 2021.

  1. notaporsche

    notaporsche Rookie

    May 18, 2018
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    paul Jacques
    Hey Guys, I have a 2006 430 Spider being shipped to me in the next few days. It checked all my boxes except for the tiny brakes. That said, I sourced a full set (including E-brake) of CCB calipers. My plan is to use the Calipers with a set of steel 2 piece floating rotors. I see that a few people on here have used Racingbrakes.com for this exact set up. I reached out to them today for pricing on there 380/350 steel rotor kit. They got back to me and said that I needed the 394/350 set for the 430 Spider? Everything I have read says 380/350 and Brembo also sells a similar kit and there’s is also 380/350. I explained this to Rackngbrakes and they made me feel like I didn’t know what I was talking about.....Do I? Also, does anyone know what brake pads are used in CCB calipers when using steel rotors? I see some Mercedes and GTR pads mentioned in other posts but I haven’t found a definite answer. I would like the option to play with different compounds and pad manufacturers if they are simply pads from a readily available application. My last question, I also see where people have done this conversion and retained the original iron brake Master Cylinder and said it worked fine, can someone please confirm this for me? Seems pretty simple to upgrade the MC as well but if it isn't needed...then I won’t. Thanks in advance!
     
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  3. marc996

    marc996 Rookie

    May 12, 2019
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    marc bethell
    Hi, you've probably checked already, but if the calipers are used, make sure the pistons are OK before you put them on. They are very prone to seizing due to the nickel coating flaking.
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  4. mike32

    mike32 F1 Rookie

    May 13, 2016
    3,381
    Uk
    Are you sure these will fit- from what i read the discs you are getting are the same diameter as the CCM discs ? I think the likes of EBC do a good range of pads to suit the OEM steel discs and it might be worth an e mail to them about pads to suit your custom setup.
     
  5. notaporsche

    notaporsche Rookie

    May 18, 2018
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    paul Jacques
    Factory rotors are 380/350..... correct?
     
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  6. Fenz

    Fenz Karting
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    Nov 8, 2018
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    #5 Fenz, Mar 24, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
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  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    394 mm sounds like Corvette rotors.
     
  9. notaporsche

    notaporsche Rookie

    May 18, 2018
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    paul Jacques
    No clue, I’m hopping I was communicating with a new guy or one with little experience. I just went to their web site and they do list a 394/350 for the Scud but there site clearly says 380/350 for the F430. Good help is hard to get these days!
     
  10. Flea7

    Flea7 Formula 3
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  11. Flea7

    Flea7 Formula 3
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    Yup ...Corvette rotor size. There was some talk where the GM/Brembo ceramic brakes for the rear, which are 380mm, was compatible with the CCB hats for the F430.
     
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  13. notaporsche

    notaporsche Rookie

    May 18, 2018
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    paul Jacques
    I know the brake booster is different for the CCB cars but do you know if the master cylinder itself is different as well? Looks like they are generally sold as a set( MC/Booster)
     
  14. Danedingerson

    Danedingerson Karting

    Dec 26, 2011
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    Maui
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    Dane
    We built hotrods, SCCA cars and component cars and had to often remind folks that bigger brakes don't stop your car any better unless they are having a problem with overheating from repeatedly braking from high speed or driving on steep hills. Ferrari knows this so the bigger brakes are on race cars only. Do any of you have frequent brake fade while street driving? You need bigger brakes. Other wise we put them on for looks,.In the case of SCCA cars many bigger brake setups added unsprung weight which made them slower in the turns. I had to make them smaller for a client, he felt all that weight hindered handling without stopping the car faster since he had no fade issues.

    .
     
  15. Danedingerson

    Danedingerson Karting

    Dec 26, 2011
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    Dane
    Here in Maui brakes can be a challenge if you drive up the long steep road to visit the volcano at 11,000 ft, then go home to sea level standing on your brakes the whole way down. Many cars, vans and pickups overheat on the way and smell brakes. My 430 brakes don't seem to notice. This why most high-performance cars don't have giant brake setups from the factory, not because Ferrari doesn't know how to design brakes.
     
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  16. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Dec 1, 2000
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    I would be careful with them. We've had problems after their ownership change.
     
  17. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    3,630
    France
    I'd respectfully disagree with that - as a Ferrari example the bigger brakes allowed by the 18" wheels (vs the initial 16" wheels) were one of the most noticeable improvement of the 512TR compared to the testarossa... which was really terrible, no need for a track, a spirited drive on a mountain road could completely annihilate any of the already modest stopping power . And when Ferrari introduced the CCM brakes in the mid-2000s they chose to install larger rotors to make the braking difference more obvious (since as Porsche typically shows, CCM brakes of the same size do not brake better initially, they just take longer to overheat; larger brakes OTOH allow more friction surface in addition to better heat dissipation).
     
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  18. clean512

    clean512 Formula Junior
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    Feb 4, 2010
    488
    Nor Cal
    Just about done with my set up on my 360 with 430 caiplers and ******** 380mm front and the 350mm rear. Scuderia caipers use the 398mm rotor and have a different thickness inside for clearance for the 398mm rotor.
     
  19. Danedingerson

    Danedingerson Karting

    Dec 26, 2011
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    Yes. I agree. If your brakes are fading you need bigger brakes. If they are not .... .Changing brakes can improve the feel as well.
     
  20. notaporsche

    notaporsche Rookie

    May 18, 2018
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    paul Jacques
    Clean 512, are you keeping the steel brake Master and booster?
     
  21. Flea7

    Flea7 Formula 3
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    That's not good. What is the main issues...if you don't mind disclosing that info.
     
  22. timwu12

    timwu12 Formula Junior

    Oct 31, 2014
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    Houston, TX
    Who’s the vendor that’s starred out?


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  23. clean512

    clean512 Formula Junior
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    Feb 4, 2010
    488
    Nor Cal
    yes im keeping the steel master first to try it out and need be i will switch too the 430 master and booster. i will be using Gir disq rotors.
     
  24. Ray Smith

    Ray Smith Formula Junior
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    May 17, 2020
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    You're correct.

    "Swept area" is the item most magazines emphasize, which is a measure of the friction surface available. The more of it the more heat the rotors can dissipate.

    Stopping distance is more a measure of the contact patch of the tire and it's ability to produce friction.
     
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  25. Sj_engr

    Sj_engr Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2020
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    cd
    It is ******. jk just search the html
     
  26. JC Andruet

    JC Andruet Karting

    Jan 16, 2013
    170
    You can have as big a swept area as you want, if you haven’t got sufficient MASS in the rotor to manage the thermal load generated by the friction between the pad and rotor, you’ll still end up with fade.

    If you don’t believe it, get a Scuderia and fit 398mm dia rotors, but make them 10mm rather than 32-34mm thick.
    Now try braking from 160mph down to 30mph five times in quick succession, you’ll then find out rotor temps are governed primarily by mass along with the rotor’s ability to shed its thermal load as a result of good, efficient internal venting and external cooling (such as ducting)
    Without all those, the disc will overheat, the excess heat will be transferred into the pads, and the fluid will boil shortly after.

    As for the comment about Ferrari fitting bigger discs to the ceramic brake arrangement to make the improved brake performance “more obvious”.
    Not really, ceramic discs are capable of withstanding higher temperatures, but with two caveats.
    Firstly the rotor’s temperature needs to be carefully controlled, as if it’s exceeded, the rotors will tend to oxidise and then wear far more quickly.
    But secondly, the ceramic discs aren’t as efficient at dealing with thermal loads as their steel counterparts, thus a ceramic disc HAS to be larger than its steel counterpart to ensure it stays within the manufacturers recommended heat range.
     
  27. Ray Smith

    Ray Smith Formula Junior
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    May 17, 2020
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    Yeah, I'll try that tomorrow.

    Mass was not the issue being discussed; rotor diameter was being discussed.
     
  28. JC Andruet

    JC Andruet Karting

    Jan 16, 2013
    170
    No, you said, in relation to swept area, and I quote verbatim “The more of it the more heat the rotors can dissipate”

    Bigger diameter discs afford more leverage, whilst bigger pads afford a larger friction area. That larger friction area will generate increased thermal load into the rotor.
    To manage that thermal load, you need more MASS. End of.
     

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