I don't know. I still feel Brawn GP deserves a ban more than Renault does. I'm sorry I didn't watch the entire race but from what I saw Alonso was driving at a much lower speed when the wheel cap came off than what RB was driving at before the damper came off. Even for the wheel itself, okay it is larger, in theory it could cost more damage to someone (RIP Senna) but look at what some small piece of sh*t (800 grams) did to Massa (poor guy). Okay you can call it luck that Alonso was driving relatively slower, etc. etc., but still I mean getting hit in the face by a 800 gram piece is not a joke at all and to me there is almost no difference so. I watched an interview after qualifying when he was speaking about the part, he was PURE diplomatic which I respect completely, but at the same time please it's almost BS for me because of what happened. Just because a bigger part that fell of could have potentially caused more damaged to a car AFTER a tiny piece (relatively) cause almost a fatality is being punished? Please.... How can you argue which one was an accident and which one was intentional? I don't know if you can, both parts were assembled/attached to the car by a mechanic.
Come on.........shame on you for starting this post. Mistakes happen. I know, I've been there and seen plenty on other teams as well as my own teams. These guys are in the heat of battle and sometimes they are put in situations that are not so favorable. Nobody is perfect. I can guarantee you no one feels more remorse than the guy who made a mistake regardless if it was a mechanic changing the spring, a crew chief ordering a change to be made in insuficient time, an engineer who designed the part, a manufacturing company who made the part, etc. I can guarantee you that entire team is looking into what happened and don't need people pointing fingers they feel terrible and will get to the bottom of it. In the 20 plus years in professional racing, I've seen springs fly in front of me, as well as brake rotors, tires, suspension arms, connecting rods (I actually got hit by that and it was hot as hell), wheels, shreaded chunks of tire, wheel nuts, windshields, doors, bumpers, hoods, front spoilers, rear wings, you name it I've seen it both as a driver and as a professional race engineer. We ran over an entire suspension upright that fell off a 333SP at the 24 Hours of Daytona one year that ruptured our fuel cell. I've had suspension arms break from design flaw by a manufacturer we were testing that failed on the back straight at Mosport rocketing the car into the wall at over 150 mph. I've seen drag links and a-arms break numerous times from drivers making contact with another car or FIA curbing, we had a differential gear break one time coming down the hill at Road Atlanta in 96 that put our GTS2 car into the wall (driver spun the lap before and hit the FIA curbing sideway with the rear), I've had guys put rain tires on backwards, wheel nuts tight but wheel not on the dogs which sends the wheel nut flying off the first time you brake. Not a team alive that has not made that mistake. I've had a mechanic forget to put the radiator expansion tank cap fully on and smoked the motor in qualifying, seen brake pads installed backwards during pitstops causing the brakes and wheel bearing fail, saw our transmission guy forget to install a gear in a transmission overhauled in pit lane during an endurance race on a WSC. I've seen video camera fly off its mount and get stuck under the brake pedal, hood pins left off and the hood flies off, sway bar connections, and yes I've seen shocks break causing the spring to rocket off the car, oil drain plugs left loose, engine mounts loose, etc. And freak things DO happen. I've had a tire blow in the middle of a corner that sent me flying, I've seen a tornado land on the track during a race. I've seen it dump rain instantaneously at the track without warning sending 20 or more cars off the track with three of them stuck in the tree 10 feet off the ground. I was in the pits when a car lost control and came flat out into the car we were servicing. I've been hit by a tire hit by a car coming into pit. I've been run over by own driver before I got out of the way on pit exit. I've seen and personally hit animals that ran out onto the track that caused major damage and saw a deer hit at 180mph that completely destroyed the car and sent the driver via Starflight to the ER. **** happens. Mistakes happen even to the best. I'm not saying I was or am the best but I've been involved in 100's of wins for both pro and amateur races. But there are many losses too and quite a few could be contributed to a mistake or a failure. Racing is dangerous, open wheel racing is infinitely more dangerous than saloon car racing. Pushing the envelope in the pursuit of winning will always lend an environment where something fails either by mistake, design or abuse. So unless you want to put cockpits on these cars its a fact of life. That helmet unquestionably saved Felipe's life and that's what should be recognized. This ain't nothing new. It has been going on since the first race thousands of years ago. Thankfully the safety measures introduced (or evolved due to accidents that enlighten designers and racers) continue to develop and make our sport safer than ever before. Its safer than driving in LA traffic.
This thread is starting to insense me! The damper on the rear of the Brawn car failed (FAILED) in a split second, and due its design being a captive spring under load came apart in an instant, There is nothing RB, Brawn or anyone at the circuit on the day could have done that would have changed the outcome of what eventually happend! If FM had been 1 second closer to RB it may not have happend? If the spring had bounced in a different way it may not have happend? If the wind was blowing in a different Way It may not have happend? But. the second Alonso left the pit, he as a professional driver would have known there was a problem with his car, On the TV coverage I watched the disc was rotating with the wheel the second the wheel turned, there is a vast difference in the two situations! I hope this thread will end of be deleted!
If Brawn were due any censure along the same lines as Renault it would not be for the initial failure on Barichello's car. If any would be due, it would focus on not sidelining the Button car as a safety measure and thus "rolling the dice" on whether the same failure might occur with obvious possibilities for death or injury to others. That would at least be compatible with the Renault censure.
I believe Button's car was carefully checked to ensure the same thing wasn't going to happen again and, of course, it didn't. I don't think there's any case for censure there.
The way I look at it the people that are calling for Brawn to be banned are the same people that call a lawyer when they spill there coffee in the lap, when there children fall off there bicycles ETC. Think about the entire picture beyond a spring fell off Rubens car and smashed in to Felipe's helmet. Was it the design of the shock and spring that was as fault? Was the bumps on the track at fault? Was the Mfg. of the shock or spring at fault? Was the technician that worked on that portion of the car at fault? The fact of the matter is that there are cars at the end of the race that are missing bits and pieces why do you think they are driving over the loose rubber on the track at the end of the race?? To pick up weight so that they can pass post race inspection in case something did fall off the car.
Im saying if Brawn designed a car with flaws it should be corrected NOW. If they knowingly designed/installed it then a ban should be CONSIDERED. Red Bull had the faulty suspensions on which they raced many times after the first incident. It failed again. It should have been caught after the first. If they gave the FIA misleading info to keep the design and it caused damage later action should be taken. In Brawns case; Yes it is probably a freak occurrence and nothing can or should be done.
Great books, and I agree with his comments on why stuff breaks - It's racing and they're pushing the envelope. The "freak accident" and "act of god" stuff isn't however an attempt to shift the blame but rather, in this case at least, exactly what happened - There is no other explanation for why a spring (of all things!) didn't just bounce harmlessly off the track or at least wasn't simply a "near miss" - 1 second either way and it wouldn't have happened. If Felipe had been in a slightly different position, if, if, if.... Put it down to an act of god, wish Felipe the best and get back to racing! BTW, I believe JB's entry into Q3 was delayed due to them checking this part of the car to ensure it wouldn't happen again. Renault clearly released an unsafe car - Having said that, I still don't think a ban is warranted - As has been noted, "**** happens" in the heat of battle and mistakes get made. It sure spoilt Fred's race, but beyond that, no harm done. Cheers, Ian
I agree there shouldn't be a ban but should certain parts, that essentially are stored energy, like a spring, be safety tethered in some way? How may of us have cables running through our garage door springs in case of spring failure?
This is just like the flagrant foul call in the NBA. It's not a matter of how severe the foul was, or whether or not the rules were broken, it is a matter of how hard the fouled player fell. The worst part of it is the precedent it may set, to say nothing of losing Alonso to Valencia. Wouldn't it be nice to have judges with good judgment?
The spring could've fallen off of anyones car... To say Reubens/Brawn purposely broke the spring is absolutely ridiculous.
kimis wing flew off his car a few years back when he was at mclaren. sometimes parts come off. it's not the same as the renault situation. although even in that situation i'm confused as to why f1 doesn't use the tire ties like they used to. That way if a wheel comes off it just bounces around but remains attached to the car.
Hell what a idea Andy thanking you! ...mine broke in the middle of the night with a massive bang I crapped myself , it flew over my Ferrari but thank heavens it missed it. I will be doing this ASAP..
I've never heard of such a thing (and I checked my doors -- none). Sounds like a great idea though! But honestly, those of us wishing to legislate all risk out of racing by banning everyone whose car breaks seems a lot like like soccer moms who want their kids to play with helmets. IMO, there are going to be failures of equipment, be it by design, engineering, manufacturing or installation. To suggest it should incur a ban is akin to suggesting a driver who spins off the track should be banned. It happens. At the very heart of racing is risk and everyone on a track accepts that. I think efforts should be made to minimize risk (such as the cable you mentioned) but banning teams who have a legitimate equipment failure is too much.
Banning Brawn is the right thing to do, if they ban Renault. Renault's ban is based on the possibility that an incident would occur because a piece of the car was not attached properly. Well Brawn had a piece that was not attached properly, that DID cause an incident. Of this there is no doubt.
I must be a Soccer Mom. Ive seen lots of head injuries on a soccer field. And those are the ones we can see. A strong header is like getting hit in the head with a hammer. Long term brain damage in small doses. The helmet day will come. Remember pros playing competitive hockey without a helmet ? Football ? The new guys must be wimps.
The tethers are still required in F-1. They tie the steering knuckle to the suspension bulkhead in the chassis. The wheel is bolted to the steering knuckle so if the nut is not properly attached the wheel will still fall off.
just off the top of my head: Kimi loosing rear wing in Mercedes in Germany Kimi's exhaust flying of Ferrari after handing on the sensor wire for few laps Montoya's loosing mirror of Mercedes ? in Indy ? Massa driving with refueling hose attached down the pit lane. This things happened. Renault's ban is Max trying to show he is the boss after Massa's incident.
The difference is that Renault may knowingly have let the car leave the pit lane in an unsafe condition. That is very different from the examples you give, which were unforseeable incidents.
In F1 every part is under stress - if you run a cable thru every wing, barge board, spring, piston you'll end up with a spool of wire that only good for museum of modern art
Kimi lapping with exhaust hanging by a wire ? Did anybody thought it could stay on till checkers ? SpeedTv totally foresaw that accident and was working on getting the slow motion shots of the lift off
