Buy

Brazil sprint and a new engine strategy theory...

Discussion in 'F1' started by steved033, Nov 13, 2021.

  1. steved033

    steved033 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Apr 12, 2017
    4,083
    Atlanta, GA
    Full Name:
    Steve D.
    Watching the absolutely brutal power of the Merc today....I got to thinking.

    Let me get some facts straight, first.

    1. You get a 10 grid place penalty after the first 3 engines are used and you go to a 4th?
    2. You get a 5 grid place each engine after that?
    3. Is there a maximum number of engines?

    if 3. is NO. then here's the theory.

    Take the penalty EVERY RACE (after the 4th race, of course), but you only need an engine to last one race instead of 7. NOW, you can turn it up what...20%?

    Why isn't this a strategy, OR (is it now?)

    sjd
     
    stavura, Bas, crinoid and 1 other person like this.
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. indy-25

    indy-25 Karting

    Nov 19, 2006
    81
    I've wondered this. I remember back in 04/05 when engines had to last two weekends (if I remember right) they lost 80 HP.

    Why not run a strung out engine 1 weekend and gain 60-80 HP
     
    steved033 likes this.
  4. steved033

    steved033 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Apr 12, 2017
    4,083
    Atlanta, GA
    Full Name:
    Steve D.
    I bet you could have 200hp more by not trying to run it for 7 races.

    sjd
     
  5. PureEuroM3

    PureEuroM3 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 31, 2006
    8,203
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Full Name:
    Thomas
    It's possible a new "loophole" was found. Wouldn't be surprised if other drivers use it even for valuable spots in the top 6.
     
  6. stever

    stever F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 18, 2006
    2,920
    West. Wisconsin
    Full Name:
    Steve R
    This is why I watch F1. <sarcasm>
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    8,013
    In particular, the stress in an engine on the conrods, valve springs is quadratic with respect to RPMs.
    So, to get 20% more power one would have to put 44% (1.2×1.2=1.44) more stress on these components.

    But, in this modern Hybrid era, there is a fuel flow limit which limits the amount of energy inserted into combustion.
    Only by gaining higher thermal efficiency can you get more power out of an engine (other than the engine being tired==worn out).
     
    steved033 likes this.
  9. steved033

    steved033 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Apr 12, 2017
    4,083
    Atlanta, GA
    Full Name:
    Steve D.
    I forgot about the flow limit.

    How much do you think you can turn it up then? Seems like a lot, most of HAM's passes weren't too difficult. Either he had a massive amount of mechanical grip, or more HP.

    sjd
     
  10. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
    5,060
    Madison Ohio
    Full Name:
    David A.
    I believe valve springs are still pneumatic, Could be they run turned down and not put in as much fuel. Look what happened to Vettel. Maybe he was running it too hard? Too many strict rules now!
     
    ingegnere likes this.
  11. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 12, 2004
    4,004
    Montreal
    Valve springs are pneumatic. In any case, these engines, for optimum efficiency, don’t even run close to their max. RPM.

    Besides the fuel flow restriction, there’s also the fuel tank capacity that is limited so there is still some fuel management over the full race distance. I suppose in the sprint they had plenty of margin—fuel quantity was only limited to how much weight they wanted to start the race with—so for sure the engines were running at full bore the whole race and only accentuated HAM’s pace advantage.
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    8,013
    I suspect that much of the extra performance when one "turns it up" is electrical--taking energy from the turbo (so it does not over pressurize the intake) and delivering it to the MGU-K for additional thrust. It is not like you threw fuel and spark at the ICE hoping for the best.
     
    steved033 likes this.
  14. xpensivewino

    xpensivewino Formula Junior

    Jan 26, 2008
    403
    Simi Valley CA
    Full Name:
    Need to know basis
    The new engine in Hamilton’s car is not a “direct” replacement engine. It is a higher hp variant, there is no other explanation. Botas took a new engine a race before and wasn’t able to blow past every car in the field with ease. There is zero technique in mashing the throttle to the floor, therefor the Botas car should blow through the field like Hamilton’s, yet it doesn’t. MBZ was a bit too obvious in Brazil, and so a lot of eye brows were raised. The sprint race was ridiculous. Listening to the British commentators lavish praise on Lewis for his incredible driving was a joke. The guy simply floored it down the straight and blew past every MBZ customer car like it was standing still. What amazing skill;)
     
    stavura, E60 M5, Nortonious and 6 others like this.
  15. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 16, 2004
    3,016
    Regarding LH's replacement engine, internally it the very same homologated spec. However, I suspect Mercedes is pulling out all the stops and running LH’s in full qualifying mode (i.e. giving it “full beans”) during the race. Perhaps they’ll do an ICE change for each of the remaining three races and just take the requisite five-place grid penalty each weekend.

    As far as the ICE itself is concerned, they can throw as much turbo boost at it, and run it as lean as it will survive, so long as it burns no more than a rate of 100 Liters/Hour of fuel at any given moment in time.

    After the FIA banned driver-adjustable power modes, "full beans all the time" is the only way to achieve max power (but at the potential expense of reliability). However, the driver can somewhat mitigate the massive strain by occasionally short-shifting and/or lift-and-coast, etc.
     
  16. xpensivewino

    xpensivewino Formula Junior

    Jan 26, 2008
    403
    Simi Valley CA
    Full Name:
    Need to know basis
    Any you know internally it’s exactly the same how? Please don’t say “because it’s mandated by the FIA” My brother has worked for MBZ and AMG for 37 years, even he feels that the Hamilton Brazil engine was unusually peppy!
     
    stavura, 375+ and absostone like this.
  17. xpensivewino

    xpensivewino Formula Junior

    Jan 26, 2008
    403
    Simi Valley CA
    Full Name:
    Need to know basis
    It’s up to the FIA to police their rules properly. The spirit of the cost cap was not intended for manufacturers to run a grenade every race and replace it due to so called reliability issues. If you can eclipse a 5 grid spot penalty with ease by blowing the doors off the competition, then what’s the point of the rule. They should call BS and tell MBZ, look your engines lasted fine last year and much of the season this year, so get it together. No other manufacturer is behaving this way, so they shouldn’t be allowed to skirt the rules.
     
    Picchu88, stavura, 375+ and 1 other person like this.
  18. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 16, 2004
    3,016
    It's 100% allowed by the rules. Not sure if it will be with the new 2022 rules package.
     
  19. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 16, 2004
    3,016
    That would be a risk too far. If it got protested and the motor was torn down and found to be in breach, there's a very good chance Mercedes-AMG would be excluded from the 2021 championship. The idea they would take that blatant of a chance stretches credulity.
     
  20. xpensivewino

    xpensivewino Formula Junior

    Jan 26, 2008
    403
    Simi Valley CA
    Full Name:
    Need to know basis
    I definitely respect your opinion but I try not to be that naive. Racing has always been about cheating better than the other guy without getting caught. When the FIA tears down the Brazil motor and proclaims it “in spec” I’ll believe it. Until then I’ll believe my own eyes and the absurd speed and power differential I saw on Sunday
     
    stavura and 375+ like this.
  21. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Silver Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2005
    8,988
    This theory makes sense to me. I would think that running a race distance at full party mode would consume too much fuel?

    +1 agree, commentators spewing absolute rubbish.
     
    Nortonious likes this.
  22. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Rookie

    Jun 5, 2009
    3,758
    Le caylar (France)
    Full Name:
    mathieu Jeantet
    Do you know that sometimes pride and arrogance make people do irrational things?
    A kind of last chance for a team that refuses one day to lose ..
     
    stavura, furoni and absostone like this.
  23. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2016
    13,677
    Corpus Christi, Tx.
    Full Name:
    Joe R Gonzales
    Mercedes predicts Lewis's performance in Brazil will dwindle down in the next 3 GP's.
     
  24. absostone

    absostone F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2008
    6,740
    Bs. Not to be trusted
     
  25. ktu

    ktu F1 Rookie

    May 30, 2012
    2,535
    With Max having a car that works on every cuircuit and more corner speed and downforce, would you say Max is using zero technique?
     
  26. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Silver Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2005
    8,988
    Indicating he will need a new power unit;)
     
    jgonzalesm6 likes this.
  27. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 31, 2016
    13,677
    Corpus Christi, Tx.
    Full Name:
    Joe R Gonzales
    True dat.
     
    absostone likes this.
  28. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    8,013
    Sandbagging at its very best.............
     
    375+ and jgonzalesm6 like this.

Share This Page