Brazilian GP - Spoilers

Gee, I guess Ralph did squeeze one out of his bumm in Japan? (BTW, for later reference - known as a driver's course) So you do not find it odd that on a track that requires the least amount of driver input and skill (hey, don't dog me on this one, it's a JPM quote!), that he did so well? I think we have all seen every driver you mention (RS, FA, KR, and for sure RB) to some degree, get the most out of a "rolling turd". The reason JPM is either on the podium or mired midfield is that he is lost in anything less than perfect. That has been the story of his entire career. My contention has always been that when his car is working well, any number of drivers could do the same, if not better. His wild swings in performance only prove my point. Hey, maybe this "ability" is a good thing in the age of simulation and driver aids. But if McCedes can not get him the perfect car, KR will stuff him every time. For that matter, if they both get good rides, KR will stuff him anyway.

Hmm....2003? Let's see...actually RS was leading JPM until the French GP, then a number of DNF's or racing "incidents" left him out of the points (one even caused by your buddy JPM). Creamed?

2002? about even up. JPM got RS by 6 or 8 pts - can't remember.

2001? RS

Yup, I've been watching.
Jim

 

Did anyone see the pics of the driver's official picture before the race? Schuey was late due to some interviews and they were all waiting for him. Webber put Jaguar's blowup donkey in MS's chair. ALL the drivers were cracking up - especially when MS came and sat on Rubinho's lap. I should say all EXCEPT JPM. His hatred and jealousy of MS is as plain as that smirk that is forever on his face. He needs to run around the block a few times and get his head together.
Jim

 

JPM won! That means he finished ahead of a-hold MS.

 

I agree that Japan is a driver's track. And last year? When JPM was literally tearing up the track at Japan while RS was wallowing in the midfield? I guess RS can't perform when his car isn't perfect?

Hmm, so this quite an argument you have. This is the only year that JPM since being in F1 where hasn't had a 1st tier car(in absolute speed, not counting reliability). He still outraced RS...JPM still looked *decent* with fairly regular points scoring finishes.

So I ask again where was RS last year? Where was he this year?

Maybe so, RS has never "stuffed" JPM though. That is the only person JPM has raced against on similar equipment in F1.

Well apparently you weren't watching that carefully, JPM hadn't finished 2 of the races(1 at fault & 1 equipment failure). RS had finished all the races up to that point. Funny thing too, RS wasn't even dominating JPM, he was merely 6 points up on him(which was the greatest lead he ever had on JPM the *entire* season).

"A number" being "2". Unless you are counting his crash and non-attendance of the race at Monza a DNF. Even so, both drivers finished 13 races. Hypothetically they should have equal points. Oh wait, JPM had 24 points on RS. Remember, they both finished 13 races.

True. RS finished 14 races. JPM finished 12. He should have had more points. That makes this even more sad for the "better" driver RS.

Wow. This is the seasons where Montoya had 7 different equipment failures and RS had 3. Not to mention it was Montoya's first season in F1. I would *hope* RS could beat Montoya with 4 more finished races. (They both had 3 at fault non-equipment retirements & 1 racing incident.)

Selectively?

 

Well, it's still Michael's team, so MS came in on 5 with everyone else, and Rubino had to settle for second choice at the pits. That cost him six (bunched up) spots right at the beginning.

Looking at the stats, Michael does seem to have lost his edge after clinching the championship. So why they were still giving priority to getting Michael back from the back over letting Rubens keep first, ... the scuderia moves in mysterious ways.

Notice that, once again, Villeneuve in the Renault finished just ahead of Trulli -- in a Toyota, forsooth. Really bad call on Renault's part. But what do you expect from somebody who dumps supermodels?

 

I will try an answer all your points - not just pull out bits an pieces to suit a vague point(?)...

1. Based on JPM's times that weekend, it was obvious they were running low fuel before the motor poofed - undoubtedly tweaked up for the occasion.

2,3,4,5,6,7,8. You probably think Trully actually deserved to win Monaco, didn't you!! Take the driver quotiant away and you just have a bunch of cars on a single lane road. You also have mistaken me for someone else as I have never regarded RS better than a journeyman type driver. I do like him because he is a head down, steady-Edy hard worker type. You are arguing with yourself. Your original comment was addressed to RB - and I answered. You then brought up RS - and I answered. And given a choice between RS and JPM....eh, it would depend on where the car was in developement, but JPM would be a stretch. Ralphy has always been streaky (could be due to Sir Frankie) - but when the car is difficult to drive, he can bring it home. You can not say the same about JPM. Over the years Ralph has lived in Michael's shadow and never proclaimed he was the next coming. JPM on the other hand, thinks he is Senna's ghost. He wants credibility without results. He wants respect without paying his dues. He thinks aggression on the track is equivalent to ability. Someone without a shread of humility makes for a big target. That's what makes his antics so laughable - the harder he tries, the more idiotic he becomes. He thinks he is WDC caliber. Apparently you do too. But I don't fall for the JPMallaboutme.com spin, and I didn't develop my opinion about JPM yesterday. I followed his career through CART and thought he was a good one. I was wrong. He was/is just over hyped.

9. As King Ronnie Reagan said, "There you go again.."
Jim

 

Prove it?

No more or less than other Monaco winners.

I agree.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by that.

I like that quality to. I just don't think he is as fast as a lazy JPM.

I don't know, you did respond...

I don't understand what you mean. This season JPM had no shortage of "bring it home" runs. He did do the most laps this season after MS & RB.

I don't care about how he acts in interview rooms or when running into camera men. He has consistently out competed his teammate. While doing this he has done reasonably well in the Championship. You think you were wrong about JPM, so what would be a reasonable result for him in 01, 02, 03, & 04?

 

Japan 03 - Look at his practice and quali times compaired to his race pace and it does not take a genius to figure out what they did.

Ralph - you are basing your arguments on compairing JPM to RS! My original comment was after you took a shot at RB. Therefore, you are arguing with yourself.

JPM bringing it home - I guess you conveniently forgot the countless tantrums on the radio calling the team names and *****ing about the car? He had to let the world know that it was not his fault that the car was so slow. Meanwhile Ralph was just doing his thing. And in the races where JPM struggled the most, Ralph "brought it home" - ahead of JPM. Please do not ask me to rehash every race. Just do a search, this has all been discussed. And yes, there were races where JPM out and out beat RS. But once again, that was not my point in responding to your RB or RS slam.

Reasonable results? All I have to do is look at poles to win percentage (among many other things). Your "crappy car"/"rolling turd" excuse does not fly. JPM even has a hard time getting results when it is plain he has at least comparable, if not better, equipment on the grid (compared to Ferrari). Where are the wins? All I am saying is that there are other drivers with equal or better ability that get 1% of the (most of the time, self-generated) press that JPM does. JPM thinks he is the greatest there ever was, I do not.

BTW, "over hyped" has nothing to do with someone's actions in an interview.

Once again, we better agree to disagree. You and Parkerfe are a charter members in his fan club, but I see a broader picture. I like many of the drivers due to their unique abilities. Sorry, but JPM does not impress me - on, or off, the track.
Jim

 

His qualy time was significantly slower than Rubens, wouldn't that indicate more fuel?

You are still countering my points. That, by definition, means you are arguing with me. Regardless of that point, RS is the only driver JPM has driven against (and handily embarassed).

How is this at all related to "bring the car home"? Clue: It's not.

LOL, this must be a joke. You make a broad point. Do nothing to back it up. (I could rehash specific races but it would be painful.) Your point is that JPM is only fast if given a perfect car. My counter points was that he is better than RS at doing it. The *ONLY* driver he has driven against. Comparing him to RB is just dumb, especially on a point like that.

Interesting gauge, I think he has 12 poles and 4 wins, is that not acceptable?

You could ask RS the *SAME* exact thing.

Actually, that really wasn't your point. Your point was that he is slow. I don't care about the press. I care about speed. JPM does have that. I would think 3rd place in 02 & 03 would get at least that admission.

 

Mr. Payne, you are killing me! Selective memory...

Quote:
A great driver is good all the time no matter what happens. RB has driven more fantastic races than JPM.

What seasons are you thinking about? Are you just thinking of this season?

Later....Quote: Comparing him to RB is just dumb....

Ok, are we compairing these two or not?

You have spent the last 6 posts telling me how bad RS is - yeah ok. And then when I show you how JPM has NOT "creamed" him and all you can say is, "You could ask RS the *SAME* exact thing." I am not talking about RS, I am talking about JPM and I am asking you! So if RS sucks SOOO bad (according to you), then where does that put JPM?

12 poles and only 4 wins!?!?!? And one of those was Monaco! Har! And these were "accomplished" when poles actually meant something! What a joke! It is more than just an "interesting guage"! Have you looked at any F1 history? There have been numerous WDC that would have killed for a ride like that! Get off of JPM's web site and educate yourself! This is a really cool sport with a lot of history!
Jim

 

Umm, all I did was ask a question about whether he was talking about this season or previous season. You then responded by attacking JPM. As the #1 member in the fan club I can't let that happen, remember? So I naturally responded by showing how he decimated RS over the past 4 seasons. You made a new argument. Not me.

Ummm, I never did compare them. Please quote me on where I compared them.

You never did that actually. I've countered every point you put forth. All you managed to say is that JPM is a loose cannon/aggressive driver(which I can somewhat agree with) and bring up specific races where RS outperforms JPM. Except over the average JPM absolutely embarasses RS.

Actually, you said why didn't JPM have more wins. Reliability, driver error, faster car/driver combinations, etc would be the answer to that. Pole/Win ratio is not the best way of comparing a driver though. A pole coupled with a reliability error actually looks bad. I'd prefer a win/start ratio a little better.

I like to compare drivers to teammates. It minimizes variables (specifically the thing called the car). Where do I put JPM? I would put him on what I consider "the top tier drivers". That list includes MS, KR, JB, MW, GF, NH, & FA. The second tier would include JT, RS, & RB. Of course I could be wrong. If Kimi stuffs JPM next year then I'll have to change my mental ranking.

I'll then bring up some stats (specifically involving RS). 5 poles. 4 wins.
Personally, I'll take 11 poles and 4 wins from JPM over that. Hmm, JPM has 23 podiums. RS has 24 podiums. Oh wait, JPM has been in F1 4 seasons. RS has been in 8 seasons. How impressive...once again, teammate comparison is *the* comparison. Next year will be interesting then.

 

Exactly ... next year JPM will finally have a team mate worthy of a F1 drive so it is sink or swim time.

Pete

 

Mr. Payne, all you are doing is proving that you just started watching this sport what...last year? It's real easy for you to blurr details when you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

1. RS 8 years in F1, correct. 1st year Jordan Mugen Honda. Second and third year Williams Renault. Fourth year Williams BMW. Fifth year first win and also JPM's first year. My 7 year old daughter knows that his first 4 years in the sport were spent with less than top tier teams, why can't you figure this out? Oh, that's right, it doesn't suit your skewed and flawed aurgument(?). Can't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

2. Quote:Actually, you said why didn't JPM have more wins. Reliability, driver error, faster car/driver combinations, etc would be the answer to that. Pole/Win ratio is not the best way of comparing a driver though. A pole coupled with a reliability error actually looks bad. I'd prefer a win/start ratio a little better.

Ok, I'll say this slow so you understand. A...pole...means...that...the...driver...has...the...fastest...car...on...the...grid...period. Or, so you can further understand, it means that he has the best chance of winning because he has the best equipment - IF he is a capable driver. 4 out of 12 is pathetic.

3. Quote:Reliability, driver error, faster car/driver combinations, etc would be the answer to that.

So that only applies to pole position?!?!?!?ROFLMAO!!!!! According to you that does not come into play between teamates?!?!? Sorry pal, but you can not have your cake and eat it too. You dismissed Ralph's DNF's (one caused by your hero) and other race incidents after the French GP last year, but now those same things apply only to JPM's failed pole oportunities? Har! You crack me up!

4. Quote:So I naturally responded by showing how he decimated RS over the past 4 seasons.

Ok, so.....hmmm...you were comparing who to RS? Even the Williams web site has this cool little graph showing all the driver's performances in points during a race season. Simple stuff. I would suggest you look at it before you come on here and start spouting your JPM drivel. (since you prefer the "win/start ratio...I think? Oh that's right - but only on your terms, using certain criteria, during a full moon, on only sunny days, in Europe, and oh yeah - applied to only one driver. Did I miss anything?)

Hey, but don't get me wrong! Cheer for your hero! That's great! As a matter of fact, I'm cheering for Webber next year. I'm sure there are folks around here who disagree with my "choice". But if I made stuff up, I would expect someone to call me on it (hint).
Jim

 

Only with the old qualifying format. These days it depends on fuel level as much as the raw speed of the car.

 

Yes and that is what is wrong with the current qualifying format ... at the end of the race meeting you do not know which driver/car combination is the fastest, just which strategy was the best.

LopeAlong,

I have to admit if I was a team manager I would rather have JPM driving for me than RS. Atleast JPM tries ... RS just goes around and around and around and around and if the car is good enough he will do well. JPM might crash and be a little crazy but atleast he is pushing the car.

In conclusion you could make JPM into a racing driver and winner, but you couldn't with RS ... he lacks the fire.

Pete

 

I did make a mistake earlier when I said Ralf had 4 wins, he has 6, my bad. All of those wins were made during the time JPM was at Williams, so that is a mark for Ralf.

I'm just waiting for you to actually make the claim that RS is faster than JPM (which would then deny you all credibility).

That's not an argument you want to take. Ralf just looks *WORSE*. My flawed argument, point it out please!!!!! OK, lets go year by year for podium finishes *WHEN JPM IS RACING* where Ralf starts to look really bad.
RS:
01-5 podiums (3 wins)
02-6 podiums (1 win)
03-3 podiums (2 win)
04-1 podium (0 wins)
JPM:
01-4 podiums (1 win) [RS had *4* less mechanical failures]
02-7 podiums (0 wins) [RS had 1 less mechanical failure]
03-9 podiums (2 wins) [RS had 1 less mechanical failure (although both only finished 15 GPs because of Ralf's accident@Monza)]
04-3 podiums (1 win) [RS had 2-3 more non-at fault retirements (1 reliability, 1 hit by Montoya, and 1 racing incident)]

So, from 01-04 JPM vs. RS on podiums is 23 vs. 15. Wow. Can somebody try to control the stench of ownage?

Except....that....Ralf....Schumacher....was....also....driving....the...same...car...period. I wouldn't think you were going to take such a myopic view of racing(that's my job). A race is just that, a race. **** happens. People make mistakes. Reliability problems. Regardless of JPM gettings wins or not, he still handily outscored his teammate given equal equipment.

Umm, I never said that those things only apply to JPM's "failed pole opportunities". Please quote me on that.

Please, the only place where RS has better performance is in overall wins. He is absolutely decimated on a WDC standing/point basis. That's what *matters*. What comparison would you like to make? Average points per season? Average points per finished race? Average points per race? Average WDC ranking at end of season? Poles? Wins? Podiums? "Pole/Win" ratio? Average finishing position? Average qualifying position? Median qualifying position? Fastest laps? When both finished who finished higher(JPM has finished higher than Ralf 18 times, Ralf only 13 times )?

Lets recap:
2001: JPM's first year in F1.
3 poles.
1 win (those other 2 races with poles ended due to engine trouble).
3 2nd places.
4 more mechanical retirements than Ralf.
18 points behind Ralf.

2002:
7 poles. (His 4 retirements, 3 mechanical, all happened on his pole races )
0 wins.
4 2nd places.
3 3rd places.
1 more mechnical retirement than Ralf.
8 points ahead of Ralf.

2003:
1 pole.
2 wins.
5 2nd places.
2 3rd places.
1 more mechanical retirement than Ralf. JPM did hit Ralf and caused him to leave a race while Ralf was 2nd.
24 points ahead of Ralf.

2004: (Actually RS's best year against JPM in retrospect, considering the circumstances.)
0 poles.
1 win.
2 2nd places.
1 less mechnical retirements than Ralf, but also hit Ralf in one race.
34 points ahead of Ralf. (Meaningless gauge considering the cirumstances.)

 

Hey guys!
I agree that was when Pole positions meant something was previous to the last two years (which was when JPM got all his) - and I noted that in a post a while back.

THe Schu brother relationship is an intersting one. I remember reports where mom or dad had to keep them separated after certain racing incidents. Was Ralphy following round and round, or was MS just keeping him at bay? It's easy to make another driver look bad if you have the equipment!

I have no problem with JPM having a go at someone, hell I think that is great! BUT, I have a real problem when unsuccessfull (and dumba$$) passes are followed by the whining. And I REALLY have a problem with JPM punting people off at will. Just DRIVE the darn car and show me something!
Jim

 

Mr. Payne this is getting old. I am posting your quotes and you deny making them. You take half of one of my statements and skew it to try to make a point(?). You keep baiting me with RS's record and all you are doing is proving that your argument of JPM's supreme skills(har!) is flawed! I am posting the same statements over and over and you choose to ignore them!

1. You say RS is crap. Ok he is crap! However, I don't think he is as bad as you. HEY!! We agree on something, well sort of!

2. YOU said and I quote:Actually, you said why didn't JPM have more wins. Reliability, driver error, faster car/driver combinations, etc would be the answer to that. Pole/Win ratio is not the best way of comparing a driver though. A pole coupled with a reliability error actually looks bad. I'd prefer a win/start ratio a little better.

Please don't tell me again that you never said the above... When you are on pole you HAVE at least close to the optimal machine for the race!!! CORRECT? JPM can not seem to convert pole positions to wins. WHY IS THAT? Pleaase answer this question and do not dance around it! I have always said that JPM needs a perfect car to win a race. But the majority of the time he cannot even use THAT to his advantage! THAT IS PATHETIC! And that speaks VOLUMES to his lack of ability. Oh yeah, JPM is fast! He is so fast they must have missed some of his laps - another FIA conspiracy!!!! And you "prefer" to ignore his Pole to win ratio because it does not suit your argument(?). (?) meaning, lack thereof.

3. I find it interesting all the little details you added to JPM's recap statistics, yet there is nothing for RS's! Skewed? no! not you! If you take away the last half of last year, and this year due to Ralphy's accident (which you conveniently forgot about), they are about even up - wins, points, podiums.... So what happened after the French GP last year? Do you remember? Do you remember the races Ralph got into it with another car at the start and had to pit? Or other incidents where an added pit stop put him out of the points. Not a DNF mind you, but a racing incident that put him out of the points? Now I guess you could argue (I'm sure you will) that it was due to a Ralphy dumba$$ attack or maybe just good old fashioned bad luck. But for you to state that JPM has "decimated" RS is simply not true. Oh, that's right, I forgot! JPM is allowed to have those "issues" influence his failed pole conversions. So I should be able to just forget about the last half of last year! So actually, they ARE even up! Sorry, just trying to keep up with the rules as you make them! Silly me!

4. Now we are back home to the main point you will not address. A half season of bad luck aside and we have two drivers with just about equal results. You claim RS sucks and I have never said he is WDC caliber. SO if that is the case, and JPM is even up with RS, WHERE DOES THAT PUT JPM?

Answer if you want, but as I said above, I am tired of this discussion. Time to move on. What was it that Mark Twain said about arguing with someone of........;0), "after a while people might not be able to tell the diference." And I would not want someone to think I was sullen and dejected with a permanent smirk on my face - like JPM and his followers!

Aloha!
Jim

 

Quote me on my denials. If you can't...well then that's just a lie.

Quote me.

I've responded to essentially every statement you've made(I don't even understand how you could make this statement).

I actually think RS is a decent driver. He can be *very* fast. He is so incredibly streaky though. JPM is less streaky with the same speed. That is a real argument though, at least you admitted what was so painfully obvious.

I've already answered that in my quote. "Reliability, driver error, faster car/driver combinations,etc"........that's the answer. I didn't hide it or anything.

In comparison to a teammate it's a moot point. This is a worthless comparison because RS has the same car to begin with.

Do you want me to do a recap of RS performance? It won't make him look good. But if you insist I will. The funny thing is I've included data which hurt my case.

And why the hell would you do this if RS was *RACING*.

I didn't forget Ralf's accident. If anything I made a not of it:

All the races this year where JPM made it onto the podium....RS was racing(he did have engine failure at Sepang though).

You're welcome to do whatever you want. I only compared JPM & RS in races that they had both raced. I've never said JPM is perfect. I've never said he's the best driver on the grid. Over the past 4 seasons he has outperformed RS by a large large margin, that's always been the main gist of what I said. I would have no problem if you said JPM was a bad driver and said that he is better than RS. Your argument would still be fundamentally flawed though because RS is the only driver JPM has raced against in similar equipment.

Umm, I would have addressed it if you had asked it before. You had not...
Below GF and above JB.

Congratulations?

 

Never been called a whiner before. Stubborn, persistent...