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Break up sound car for parts?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by sjb509, Feb 5, 2004.

  1. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    Over the last few months I've noted that in threads lamenting the current resale value of various F-cars (TR, 348, Mondial, etc), there is usually at some point a comment made to the effect that "I'd just break it up for parts rather than sell it for that price."

    Here is my question: has anyone here or that you know of actually done this? I mean, sell a part or sub-assembly of off a drivable (not wrecked or burnt) Ferrari? I am not talking about a rusted hulk sitting behind a barn being used as a chicken coop, what I mean is a tired, well-worn vehicle whose value is perceived to be greater in pieces on Ebay than as a complete vehicle. I cannot see how in the long run this would be a better way to go, given the hassle and time it would take to get your money back by breaking it up.

    If anyone has any experience with this, please post. Thanks.
     
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  3. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    I have a good friend of mine that does this all the time. weather it be Ferrari or Corvettes,or what ever. Sometime it just not worth the price to restore a tired car. Even though it drives and runs,the cost involved to make the car nice again...to the point were sombody will buy the car..is just not worth it sometimes. Why sell the car for say 25-30k when you can get 15k just for the engine and trans assembly,and then part out the rest..like fenders doors etc,to help out a car that can be saved?

    It comes down to weighing the cost of the resto vs what you can get for the car. If you can buy a mint TR for say 55k and it will cost you almost that much to fix your old TR..plus what ever else you already have in the car...It's just cheaper to buy the nice one and save the old one for parts.
     
  4. BrentC

    BrentC Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2003
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    If anyone is parting out a 348 and has a clutch bellhousing I'd be curious to know the price. (Sorry to hijack the thread).
     
  5. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    Sep 30, 2003
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    yes SJ it happens, and sometimes it is better to chop one to save many. BUT!!! as a mecanic i have missed some nice driveable cars thatw ere cut up for no real good reason they were fixable and appeal to someone like me who likes to take stuff all aprt and them put it together. every now and them i even buy the books too! i have no room to talk as i have chopped up many many MANY cars for parts, ( i bought them, i didnt steal them , you would not believe some of the private mail questions i get ) but these WERE NOT FERRARI'S . unless its a totalled wreck, fire , salt water flood, why not fix it????
     
  6. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
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    The key word that is missing from the above comment is TODAY! TODAY it is not worth the price to fix/repair/restore/etc. But what about tomorrow or next year or 5 years from now? That's the EXACT reason that old Ferraris, Corvettes, racers, etc, are worth so much money today. The choppers, salvagers, parter-outers, have no interest except to make money TODAY. Tomorrow is of no concern to them. So back during the 60s and 70s they chopped up anything to make a buck. I ran across ONE instance of a Corvette body shop that did NOT chop up several dozen of his wrecked Corvettes from the sixties and seventies. He bought them up dirt cheap from insurance companies and owners after their wrecks. He had about 30 old pre-1968 Corvettes behind his shop in various stages of damage. Most were frozen in time at the exact instance that they were wrecked. He saved them for 10 or 15 years then sold the whole batch in the late 90s for a HUGE profit. Through the years, they only cost him the parking space that they occupied under the trees behind his shop. It's amazing how many completely restorable and repairable cars were scrapped back in the 60s and 70s that were actually VERY savable. It's just that most of the choppers were holding these cars for financial ransom. They wanted so much money for each part that the average hot rodding rebuilder couldn't pay that much money for a project. Everybody lost out in the end.
     
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  8. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

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  9. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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  10. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    One of the F-chat members was parting out his 550 Maranello here a few months ago.

    It looked repairable.....maybe it was not economical to do so however.
     
  11. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

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    Only love will keep these cars around. The market won't support the cost of restoring/maintaining them.

    Ken
     
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  13. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran

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  14. TheCarcierge

    TheCarcierge Formula 3

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    "it is very straight and the sheet metal is filler free. The panel fit is excellent, the rockers are rust free."

    On a '65 vintage Ferrari - with no restoration work? Never happened. Never straight, always filler, panel fit is usually marginal and there is always some rust.

    Scottie
     
  15. FerrariFrank1

    FerrariFrank1 F1 Rookie

    Aug 15, 2003
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    IMO.that 330 is definitely worth fixing up and keeping,at least for the next 5-10 years,then Ferrari's are going to skyrocket. Mark my words.....:) Same with ANY Ferrari that is straight and runs and drives. There really weren't a whole hell of alot built in the first place. And,every year,we lose some to total wrecks,fires,etc...so,If it's a "viable" car,It's worth keeping. Like they say on the Speed channel show,"Hemmings My Classic car"...."Don't crush 'em,Restore 'em!" Who ever thought that they'd be selling,(and buying) '69 Camaro's,Non Hemi 'Cuda's & Challengers,etc...for $60-$70K and up. The Ferrari's will be there in the next 5-up years. I'm telling you!
     
  16. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

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    Some will go up, but the demand is way less than you think. Personally, I think the 308 series is the best "investment" Ferrari right now. The American muscle cars are so valuable because there's high demand. Plus they are easy to live with; parts are cheap, they're easy to fix and don't have much in the way of needed maintainence. Very few people are willing to put up with an old exotic.

    Ken
     
  17. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    That is exactly the kind of car I am talking about. Tired with a few warts. But in looking at the car, why wouldn't someone fix the problems that it has and have an original car that they could be proud of for years?

    Like they said in the ad:
    R & R the brakes w/ new lines
    R & R wheels, hubs and bearings
    New Tires
    R & R carbs and fuel system

    Not mentioned, but if it were mine:
    Inspect and flush radiator/cooling system with new hoses
    R & R suspension bushings and shocks
    Leatherique the interior
    Detail engine bay

    If you had a mechanic do all of this you would pay a fortune, but wouldn't it be more fun to get to know your "new" Ferrari over the course of several Sundays while the snow piles up outside? If you did most of the work yourself, I would think $10-12k in parts and outsourced labor at the most to perform those items above. Some things are not that expensive listed above, while I'm sure buying a new fuel pump, or finding a replacement for a rotten radiator would set you back a few bucks if needed.

    Buying it for $35k seems too much, but if you could buy it in its current condition for upper 20's and have it "completed" for mid 30's, it would seem like a good deal. Wouldn't the best 330 2+2 in the world be worth only about $60k?

    Would you win Pebble Beach with it? No. Would it draw a crowd at the local Steak & Shake Saturday Drive-in? Probably. Would the new owner be proud of his 40 year old, original Ferrari he put back on the road with his own sweat and effort? Absolutely.
     
  18. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

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    <That is exactly the kind of car I am talking about. Tired with a few warts. But in looking at the car, why wouldn't someone fix the problems that it has and have an original car that they could be proud of for years?>

    It costs too much. Much too much.



    <Like they said in the ad:
    R & R the brakes w/ new lines
    R & R wheels, hubs and bearings
    New Tires
    R & R carbs and fuel system>

    That's what they TELL you; ever bought a project car? If so then you know there's always twice what you think to do, and things like bleeding brakes turns out to be a complete replacement of the system. IF you can find the parts.

    <Not mentioned, but if it were mine:
    Inspect and flush radiator/cooling system with new hoses
    R & R suspension bushings and shocks
    Leatherique the interior
    Detail engine bay>


    LOL, by the time you get to detailing the engine bay you've sunk $75k in this car. Or more.


    <If you had a mechanic do all of this you would pay a fortune, but wouldn't it be more fun to get to know your "new" Ferrari over the course of several Sundays while the snow piles up outside? >

    "Several Sundays"???? It will take a year, not counting waiting/sourcing parts. Plus, Ferraris are COMPLICATED. You need experience to do the engine right; it's not a car to learn on. Even good mechanics have Ferrari guys rebuild the 12's. Look at Tom Yang's site. His car was maybe worse than this one to start, but you get the gist of what's involved.



    <If you did most of the work yourself, I would think $10-12k in parts and outsourced labor at the most to perform those items above.>

    No way Jose. Not even close.



    < Some things are not that expensive listed above, while I'm sure buying a new fuel pump, or finding a replacement for a rotten radiator would set you back a few bucks if needed.>

    Yes, a "few". Now, you could just buy a generic electric fuel pump and a lot of incorrect parts and save a bundle, but "saving" the car is inconsistant with creating a Frankenstein Ferrari.

    <Buying it for $35k seems too much, but if you could buy it in its current condition for upper 20's and have it "completed" for mid 30's, it would seem like a good deal. Wouldn't the best 330 2+2 in the world be worth only about $60k?>

    I don't know, but if you got the car for free, breaking even would be the goal.

    <Would you win Pebble Beach with it? No. Would it draw a crowd at the local Steak & Shake Saturday Drive-in? Probably. Would the new owner be proud of his 40 year old, original Ferrari he put back on the road with his own sweat and effort? Absolutely.>
    I agree with all of that. It would be a fun car. My point is only that it would be very, very expensive so you'd better be doing it for fun, and have a lot of money. Look, my Europa is a simple car compared to a Ferrari. I bought it in running condition, pretty good shape. I have $15k in it now and it's got a few more things to do. And my parts are CHEAP, plus I can do most stuff myself. This is a much better choice for a project unless you have restored old exotics before.

    Ken
     
  19. Erich

    Erich Formula 3

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    The money you spend to fix up this car will exceed the amount of money you could sell the car for.
    So you could take your total investment and buy a 330 GTC in nicer shape and own a car that is worth what you paid for it.

    The way to do this is to wait until Tom Yang needs money for a bigger house/ second kid. Then buy his restored 330 at 25cents on the dollar.
    :)


    Erihc
     
  20. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    I have to admit that I've never attempted a car like this before, just done a couple of motorcycles which granted are in a different league as far as complexity, although sometimes not cost of parts.

    Assuming that the condition of the car is as-decribed, the list would be the basic work required to get it back in condition to drive. I think you misunderstand what I would expect the eventual condition to be when completed, it would still be an old car that looks 40 years old. I think the assumption when someone begins talking about working on these old cars is that a full restoration is the only level of quality acceptable. I agree, you'd never get your money back on a full resto. Ever seen www.tomyang.net? Who knows how much he has in that car, not even counting his own time. I am not in any way describing what he is doing.

    Didn't Ferrari use common vendors for most parts, such as the fuel pump, wheel bearings, carbs, shocks, calipers, etc? Couldn't these be sourced or the old ones rebuilt and save a few $$$.

    As far as the total amount of money required for the parts to do what was decribed, I still contend that it will be a lot closer to $12k than $75k, if the owner put a substantial amount of his own sweat equity into the project to perform only what was decribed.

    You are right, several Sundays was too optimistic, 400 hours would be a starting point for your actual labor. At least spreading it out over a year would make the monthly cost look better to your spouse.

    As far as a Frankenstein Ferrari, if you kept the old parts (fuel pump for example if an authentic replacement could not be found), wouldn't that help to minimize the Frankenstein effect if you ever sell it? Eventually some part on every car will become unobtainable and have to be improvised or fabricated.
     
  21. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
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    Ken said: "I don't know, but if you got the car for free, breaking even would be the goal."

    This may be true, and of course restoring a car like that 330 is a losing proposition from a financial point of view. But here's the bottom line question: What would you have the owner do with that car? You say that it costs more to restore that it is worth. Over and over I hear that same mantra from the Ferrari crowd: "It will cost more to restore that it is worth." The Ferrari lovers constantly harp about the "Ferrari mystique" and then they do a 180 degree turnabout andd contradict themselves by saying that a particular car is not worth the MONEY to restore. You guys would have a heart attack if the owner of that car registered here on F-chat and then made a posting to the effect that "You Ferrari guys are correct. My completely intact running and driving 330 Ferrari is not worth the money to restore so I am chopping it up for parts. AND HERE ARE SOME PHOTOS OF THE PROCESS TO MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY. Doesn't everybody feel happy now that nobody wasted their money trying to restore my car?"

    The REAL WORLD truth is that a 330 Ferrari like that IS WORTH something intact. People may SAY that it's not worth restoring, but that's a lot of hogwash and everybody knows it. Everybody on this site knows good and well that if THEY owned that car, there is no way that they would part that car out or sell it for $10,000. You guys need to get a grip on reality!
     
  22. 96impalaSS

    96impalaSS F1 Rookie

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    If you have a older Ferrari or any other older car that parts are not in production anymore you can make a good profit selling the parts from your car. Those parts are in demand and hard to obtain, and usually carry a high value. Some people may want to buy the whole car but alot of people that allready have the car probally need at least one hard to find original part for it.
     
  23. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

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    <I have to admit that I've never attempted a car like this before, just done a couple of motorcycles which granted are in a different league as far as complexity, although sometimes not cost of parts.>

    Most resto projects end up getting sold as projects. Keep that in mind.

    <Assuming that the condition of the car is as-decribed,>

    I wouldn't assume that for a good condition Ferrari on eBay, let alone a project car that is being sold a second time in a short period.

    < I think the assumption when someone begins talking about working on these old cars is that a full restoration is the only level of quality acceptable.>

    Not at all. My car is far from a frame off job. It's in the condition I think you imagine you want this car to be. Looks good but not perfect, drives great, has minor issues that time can be spend attending to.


    <Didn't Ferrari use common vendors for most parts, such as the fuel pump, wheel bearings, carbs, shocks, calipers, etc? Couldn't these be sourced or the old ones rebuilt and save a few $$$.>

    You'd be hard pressed to find "common" parts on a 40 year old Ferrari. You could find modern replacement parts for a few, but if you need valve guides, piston rings, etc. you're looking at big bucks plus parts issues.

    <As far as the total amount of money required for the parts to do what was decribed, I still contend that it will be a lot closer to $12k than $75k, if the owner put a substantial amount of his own sweat equity into the project to perform only what was decribed.>

    Perhaps; but an engine rebuild is close to $12k to begin with which is why I expect this car is for sale in the first place.

    <You are right, several Sundays was too optimistic, 400 hours would be a starting point for your actual labor. At least spreading it out over a year would make the monthly cost look better to your spouse.>

    As long as she doesn't mind a statue of an old Ferrari in your garage for a long time.

    <As far as a Frankenstein Ferrari, if you kept the old parts (fuel pump for example if an authentic replacement could not be found), wouldn't that help to minimize the Frankenstein effect if you ever sell it? >

    Every project I've ever seen comes with boxes and boxes of "parts". If they are broken parts they may or may not have value.

    <Eventually some part on every car will become unobtainable and have to be improvised or fabricated.>

    Which is why a 40 year old Ferrari will cost many times what a 1960's Mustang would cost to restore. Ford and GM parts "is parts"; Ferrari is not. I'm not saying you shouldn't buy and restore this car; I just think you don't have the scope of what a huge project this would be to even get the car to where you could just drive it every few days for fun.

    Ken
     
  24. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I think it would be very unfortunate if that 330 is parted out. And, I would be surprised if that actually happens.

    The fact is, even a running, driving, 60's Ferrari is probably going to have some of the problems people have mentioned in this thread. Yes, going into this car you know you'll have some work, but unless you are very thorough and very lucky, any vintage Ferrari you buy will need work. Period.

    Sheehan wrote an article in SCM a while back about a guy who bought a "restored" 330 America. The car was beautiful, sure, but the bill to get it safely drivable was well into the tens of thousands. And that car had already been "restored"!

    For that matter, even a car you already own will have issues. My 365 2+2 was trouble-free for about 8 years, but the last two years I don't want to add up how much I've spent on it!

    Owning any Ferrari 2+2 is a labor of love. You will never, ever, ever come out ahead buying one, unless you are very lucky.
     
  25. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran

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