Broken down....again | FerrariChat

Broken down....again

Discussion in '308/328' started by LUKN4UBL, Mar 23, 2012.

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  1. LUKN4UBL

    LUKN4UBL Rookie

    Feb 15, 2007
    40
    2 months ago I had a loud squealing noise coming from the engine and it turned out to be a broken water pump/alternator belt on my '83 QV. I rebuilt the water pump with T.Rutland's kit, reinstalled the pump, and checked belt tension. The car idled fine for 30 minutes so I took it for a drive.

    5 minutes in, the dreaded squealing sound and my water temperature started shooting up. Pulled over, and I have another melted belt wrapped around the water pump and alternator. The water pump pulley spins freely by hand. What can this be? Alternators don't seize up, so why am I going through belts?
     
  2. stevel48

    stevel48 Formula 3

    Jan 4, 2005
    1,998
    Metrowest MA
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    Steve (85 308 Owner)
    Wrong belts or a belt tension issue I would imagine.
     
  3. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
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    Feb 17, 2006
    4,078
    San Jose area
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    What makes you say that? They have bearings, right? Bearings can go bad for a lot of reasons.

    Does it feel silky smooth when you spin it? Nice and quiet?
     
  4. PT 328

    PT 328 F1 Rookie

    May 1, 2005
    4,004
    In addition to what Steve mentioned I would check the alignment as well meaning there is no wobbling noted with rotation (bearing issue). I would initially suspect tension since nothing appears to be seized.
     
  5. MNExotics

    MNExotics F1 Rookie
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    Dec 13, 2010
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    Ben Gruenzner
    +1
    Make sure the bolt is tight enough as I have seen some loose their tension and put on a new lock washer.

    Just a side note on alternators, either they can seize up or I have had a couple in my shop faking it. Since yours ran fine I would doubt the alt bearings failed.
     
  6. LUKN4UBL

    LUKN4UBL Rookie

    Feb 15, 2007
    40
    OK...I'll order a new belt and check tension again. I'll double check the alternator in the AM as well, but it spun freely before.

    Good point on the alternator bearings. I've just never had an alternator seize up, every one I've had fail on other vehicles stopped producing an output and showed signs of failure with dimming lights.
     
  7. jonesdds

    jonesdds Formula 3

    Aug 31, 2006
    2,163
    SB,CA & Park City UT
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    Jeff
    Which belt is it? At least on my 328 and I assume whatever you have they are different belts.

    That would be the first important bit of info.

    Did you rebuild the water pump?
     
  8. Qvb

    Qvb F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2003
    2,848
    Newport Beach Ca.
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    John Dixon
    Years ago I had this problem with the belts melting on my '83. My water pump felt perfectly fine with no belt on it, so I put on a new belt and it melted it again. Turned out to be the water pump, it always felt fine but it was either intermittent or it needed the tension on it to be a problem. After the water pump was fixed I had no problem. But since you did the water pump who knows. I know what you mean about alternators, it seems they usually fail electrically as opposed to seizing up, but it certainly seems possible.
    Unless you had it crazy tight, I would not think it would be a tension issue. I don't think it would generate that kind of heat.
     
  9. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

    Jul 26, 2009
    5,401
    Ahwatukee, AZ
    I had an alternator sieze up once. I'm the only person I know to have this happen and I got months of warning with a lot of bearing noise. Japanese car.

    If you can get close to these pulleys look to see if one has more melted rubber on it. I would thing if one is siezing it would have some transferrence.
     
  10. ragtop1

    ragtop1 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 11, 2006
    5,241
    Ontario
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    Larry Warren
    I experienced this problem a few years ago on my '79. There were 2 issues that needed to be addressed. The pivot nut & bolt holding the alternator wasn't tightened & the alignment was off causing the squeak. The threads were stripped. Also the belt was oversize, as there was no room left on the alternator bracket to adjust the tension further. After purchasing the correct belt (smaller diameter) there was lots of room for tightening the belt. New nut, bolt & lock washers & loctite on the main pivot bolt. No problems since & 5000 miles later. I tightened that belt up with as little play as possible.
     
  11. LUKN4UBL

    LUKN4UBL Rookie

    Feb 15, 2007
    40
    It's been a while since I updated this thread. It appears the belt tension (too loose) was the culprit. As a precautionary measure, I rebuilt the water pump. As my luck would have it, I now have coolant dripping out of the water pump weep hole after the rebuild. I've heard of some re-engineered/rebuilt water pump solutions that are more robust. Any comments or input into these options? I'm afraid to wander far from home with the car at this point. Putting a lot of miles on my Lotus that I'd rather be putting on the 308 this summer.
     
  12. Matto

    Matto Formula 3

    Dec 26, 2011
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    Matthew
    Yep. Polyflex belts are really misleading. They can take a lot of tension, and need it. Personally, I'd pick up a complete water pump from Superformance. Good price and one less thing to worry about.....get it in there with a new belt and hit the road.
     
  13. FiatRN

    FiatRN Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2008
    319
    Denver, CO
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    Jonathan Drout
    There are several choices --

    new pump from (insert supplier name here)

    rebuild at home

    rebuild from (insert favorite rebuilder here).

    Many folk have bantered names about, and pretty much every piece of feedback I've seen on Fchat about water pump rebuilds has been positive.

    I had mine done by Dave Helms at Scuderia Rampante in Boulder CO. Turnaround was quick. The work sure looks great. I sent him the pump AND the housing it connects to. He fixed pitting in the hose connections, replaced a couple of sketchy smaller connection with gorgeous brass hose barbed pipe, faced the mate-up area between the housing and the pump, and made sure it was rebuilt properly. Top quality work sure seems to come out of that shop.

    Depending on which pump you have, there are options as to bearing size and (I think) seals.

    Research and plan carefully, but you already know how upsetting a leaky water pump can be!

    Jonathan
    Denver, CO
     
  14. Steve King

    Steve King F1 Rookie

    Feb 15, 2001
    4,367
    NY
    The Dutchman did mine back in 2003 and it's still doing fine. Oh 25,000 miles on it.
     
  15. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
    BANNED Professional Ferrari Technician

    Apr 26, 2006
    3,664
    New England
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    David Feinberg
    This statement implies a single belt QV. The water pump and alternator are driven from the same belt. Gate 7m1000 Polyflex

    And this is both great advice and the direction you'd best follow. The correct tension is far higher than you're used to seeing, particularly if you haven't worked with the Polyfelx belts before. The WSM and the OM list the belt tension recommended. Also, specifically applicable to the single bet set-up, it would be wise to inspect the alternator mounting bushings. Over time, due to oil leakage in that area and heat, they deteriorate...and can cause the alternator to become off-axis due to the (high) belt tension. These bushings are NLA from Ferrari, but we do make a run these from time to time, as demand warrants.
     
  16. Matto

    Matto Formula 3

    Dec 26, 2011
    2,085
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    Matthew
    Great tip, thank you. I'll be sure to have a look at those.
     
  17. chairpilot

    chairpilot Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2007
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    PlateClipGuys
    David, should the Polyflex belts be tensioned to OEM specs or do I go higher? If higher, by how much? I'm about to do this with my new belts - 7M1000 and 11M850 (Sanden conversion) and can check tension with the cricket tool I have.
     
  18. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    Apr 26, 2006
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    I know you'll cringe when I say this, but I've done so many of them, I often do it "by feel." So, to best answer your question, particularly on the 7m belt, I'd be at the very high end of the factory spec given. If you go too tight, you always run the risk of taking out the water pump bearings...As a guideline, when it's all said and done, deflection on the longest section of the 7m belt will be no more than 5-6 mm, with thumb pressure.

    The AC belt, I suspect due to the greater contact area, seems to be less sensitive to tightness. Again, I would still defer to the factory specs.
     
  19. chairpilot

    chairpilot Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2007
    1,547
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    PlateClipGuys
    My QV OM says 84-99 lbs for the 7M (for an old belt 68-84) and 50 lbs for the 11M new (42 lbs old). Do these sound typical?
     

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