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Broken Dreams: The Boeing 787

Discussion in 'AviatorChat.com' started by Jet-X, Sep 8, 2014.

  1. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

    Nov 3, 2012
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  2. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

    Nov 3, 2012
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    Oh God!!
     
  3. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    :eek: :)

    While fun, those kind of stunts can so easily backfire in many situations. Here's one of the guy who presided over what I believe remains the biggest loss of corporate value in history......

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc

    It's a fine line....... ;)

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  4. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    Okay, some of the AJ documentary was over dramatized but the important stuff was accurate and can be substantiated. Has the Airinsight spokesman been " on the floor"? Has he talked face to face with employees? Is he closely connected to what is going on? The 787-9 IS on target and going out the door rapidly and is a good airplane. Hopefully the dash 10 will be the same .In Everett there are still some employees who have a sense of pride to do good work and build the airplane right but there is a deep current of anger in the plant and too many good people are leaving. McNerney and McDonnel should be going with them.
     
  5. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    Not sure where you got this idea. CFRP is actually very damage tolerant. The resin does not shatter, and the laminated structure is quite crack resistant. For the 787 Boeing did studies, and I believe testing, where the fuselage had large cutouts induced while under load. IIRC is was called a guillotine test.
     
  6. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I'd guess from following F1..... For sure, in that application, it does pretty much "explode" when hit!

    But I think that's more the way they lay it up - it's damn strong & light of course, but not done with the same objectives as when building an airplane! ;)

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  7. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ
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    Ian:

    Berfore you ride in one of them, I'd review this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kERSSRJant0

    Scully makes a very good set of points about Airbus deficiencies in this video.

    Art
     
  8. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    Two things pop into my head when I read things like this re fly by wire and cockpit design. When we were in the early stages of the 777, the airline pilots who were monitoring the design process were adamant that the airplane have yolks and control wheels in the cockpit. I heard a forceful statement from one of the captains , " I want to see what the other guy is doing when he is flying the airplane!" We were chided by Airbus as being backward by not having full fly by wire technology. The 777 does have some but after an incident where an Airbus lost all elect. power for several minutes a memo from high above affirmed that the airplane would have control cable back up to stab. trim and outboard spoilers.I think I remember that correctly.Total loss of the air data system is a mystery to me.
     
  9. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ
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    Was told that the earlier planes had a computer glitz, that if the turbulence exceeded design parameters, would re-boot. Costing all control. They fixed it, but it would have been pretty scary.

    Art
     
  10. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Art, pretty sure that you mean SULLY.

    ...and he does make good points.
     
  11. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    [Dons flamesuit ;)]

    Well, I'm not too sure about that..... His only point in there really was that the joysticks weren't 'linked' the way the yolks are in Boeings. I haven't checked (yet!) but I'd bet I can find all kinds of solid engineering reasons why Airbus don't think that's a good idea.

    Seems to me it was a combination of terrible luck (as is generally the case) and even more terrible piloting! :( I'm certainly no pilot, so will very much defer to others here, but I thought, for example, 75 stall warning alarms should get your attention? Seems they were ignored. I mean, what can the plane do other than warn you it's stalling? Then I thought it was pretty much "automatic" (or even 'instinctual'?) in such situations to point the nose down till they shut off?

    Further, and again I'd love to know from those who know, shouldn't the pilots good old fashioned mark one ass give an indication of airplane attitude? I know we've all heard the horror stories of them not "trusting" the instruments, but it doesn't sound like that's what happened in this case? They lost airspeed indication it seems, but all the other stuff (artificial horizon etc)was still OK?

    A terrible accident for sure, but I don't think it's fair to blame the airplane here. I'm also certain they get a lot more training across the two seats now too......

    So, yeah, I'd fly one again. And believe me, I don't have any kind of death wish either! ;)

    Spontaneously combusting batteries OTOH I'm not so sure about.... ;)

    Seriously, I figure the guys up front want to get to the other end just as much as me, and if they're prepared to fly it, I'm prepared to go along I guess.

    As always, my (laymans) 02c,
    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  12. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ
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    ian;

    ~Read bob's response above. I've only got about 4000 hours of flight time, he must have a bunch more. Sully has 20,000+. I don't think an engineering report means much. Listen to those with experience. With the current foreign training methods, i.e., people getting into the right seat with a lot less time than they used to be required to have, you'd better think twice about not having that safety factor. Too many ways for people to screw up in these things.

    Art

    Art
     
  13. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    The Mark One Ass is the most unreliable instrument in the airplane. It and the ear read acceleration and as long as it thinks there is 1G , it and the ears are happy. That 1G could be applied by a turn rate in a downward spiral. In IMC one would never sense that they were in a fatal descent like that which killed JFK's son John. The AF pilot had no idea what was happening because as far as he was concerned his Mark One had the 1G feel and didn't know that they were in a deep stall and on the way down. I will forever be flabbergasted that the copilot was applying full back stick in that incident. Stick at least neutral or even a little down. The big birds don't give you much sound or feel but certainly you don't hog back on the stick.
     
  14. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I did, and as always he makes tons of sense. Total respect for the guy and his opinions & experience...... One of 'the incredibles' after all! I used to go back and forth over the pond every couple of weeks years back, and "his" 747 still remains my favorite way to do it.

    For sure! But that's a different can of worms entirely, and again, not the airplanes fault that some people aren't being trained properly.

    I fully understand Bobs captains wanting to know what the other guy is doing! But, OTOH, going forward, I can see vastly experienced Airbus captains saying "the last thing I want is my joystick wiggling around when the other guy moves his!"

    Again, to me anyway, seems these guys exhibited terrible piloting skills, but that's not the airplanes fault, surely?

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  15. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Gotcha, Fair enough! Thanks! As I mentioned, we've all heard the horror stories of them not trusting the instruments but rather their ass/ears.... Sometimes, unfortunately, with very bad consequences.

    Seems almost like a "death grip"? Panic? That they ignored what seems to be many minutes of stall warnings is another thing I just don't get.... As I mentioned, I thought it was almost "instinct" to drop the nose in such a situation?

    Seems like a terrible case of bad flying rather than a "bad" airplane is my only point.

    As always, thanks for the insights, very much appreciated,
    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  16. Jet-X

    Jet-X F1 Veteran
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    #66 Jet-X, Sep 15, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Or the United 747 that lost a good chunk of its fuselage also out of Hawaii:

    See second image :D
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  17. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Please note I'm absolutely not trying to argue, I find it a fascinating debate about a subject I know little. (As you've all surmised, no doubt! ;))


    "Devils advocate" here - I can't help thinking that had that been an Airbus the howls would be how it was ****ty engineering, and would never have happened on a Boeing!

    Again, I have immense respect for the (over?) engineering that went into what I'll call "the Bob era" airplanes. Where quality was all that mattered, management was encouraging and so on. Must be heart breaking to watch his company be profiled negatively by Al Jazeera after all those guys achieved. :(

    As I said, I was never more content than putting me, or my kids, onto a (preferably, BA ;)) 747.

    Oops!

    I vaguely remember that one. What the hell happened there?

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  18. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ
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    The Hawaii 737 problem was due to improper maintenance. Boeing recommended certain procedures bonding items, they were supposed to maintain it after a certain time, but didn't. The plane came apart after twice as long as Boeing recommended.

    See:

    Accident Investigations - NTSB - National Transportation Safety Board

    Art
     
  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #69 Rifledriver, Sep 15, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
    As I recall ground crew overrode some safeties and ran the motors up. Can't fix stupid.

    Brand new airplane too.

    Reminds me of a friend who witnessed a gear up landing. Seems they were practicing slow flight so a student could get a feel for it. Pulled the gear up warning breaker because they were tired of listening to it.
     
  20. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 Veteran
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    It was the airlines ferry pilot....The airplane was making alot of warning noises in the cockpit while they were running it up, so they shut the airplane up and that was the result:)
     
  21. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    As Brian notes, "can't fix stupid!"

    But neither can you blame the airplane...... Sully's "reconstruction" of the AF disaster suggests Boeing are 'better' because they link the yolks. OK, makes sense I guess. At least to pilots used to flying that way.

    But it also skipped over what I assume were many minutes of *ignored* stall warnings! Can't blame the plane for that one either - Damn thing did it's best...... Inadequately trained pilots etc are hardly Airbus' fault either.....


    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #72 Rifledriver, Sep 15, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
    Ian, no question they F'd up but humans fly airplanes and humans make mistakes. One important part of designing anything performed by humans is to accept that and take every reasonable step to reduce those screw ups. Make it easier and more probable to do it the right way than the wrong way. Seems connected yokes is a good step. Not a pilot but would welcome comment from someone who is to tell me why that is wrong and AB has it right.


    Also Ian, I agree whole heartedly we need to have better minimum standards for pilots but do you know of any board rooms in America or the World for that matter sitting around trying to figure out how they are going to staff their company with better more experienced people and pay them more? That ship has sailed. Business schools have not taught that philosophy since our parents generation. I don't know about you but when I get on an airplane I look left and pray there is some dude older than us with more crows feet up there but that is getting pretty rare.
     
  23. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    No argument from me on any points there!

    Connected yokes have been around since the dawn of the right seat I guess. Obviously a damn good way to do it! And I totally concur with Bobs captains comments that "I want to know what the other guy is up to!"

    I'm not trying to claim AB has it "right", just different. A I said, looking forward I can see vastly experienced AB skippers saying the last thing they want is a jiggling joystick! :eek: (and let's not go there! ;))

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  24. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 Veteran
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    Several pilots I talked to have said you could not have done that in a new Boeing aircraft( refering to the A340-600 run up accident). That said, it was a pilot error.
     
  25. 412fan

    412fan Karting

    Aug 1, 2005
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    Hiring problem. There are many brand new engineers that are NOT like this.
     

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