The regs pretty much say its for the teams to show they complyThey ( amus) also say its some thing to do with Neway and his company. Curious as to why you would leave that info out? Newey not employed by Red Bull Racing Despite his reported $9m income a year from the Red Bull Group, AMuS claim Red Bull have not categorised Newey as one of their top three earners. Newey has been working on other projects besides the F1 team such as an America’s cup challenger and the Aston Martin Valkyrie supercar. These projects are likely to be Red Bull Technology activities and Newey may well sit within this payroll. AMuS claims Newey has then been subcontracted to Red Bull Racing for there design of the 2022 RB18 so only his salary related to Formula One activities for Red Bull are included. If you honestly didnt know, ill have shown u yesterday, but this thread is more about accusing merc of breaking the financial regs than redbull, who have actually been found guilty of such , so i didnt bother to post it, seeing as people are moat interested in derailed the thread and all that. What's the point in sharing and having a discussion. Pointless right? Thread should be called " the alternate reality of redbull fans"
One has to know what the penalty is before appealing against it, I would have thought. At this point, I believe the FIA hasn't said anything about it. I don't think Mercedes has been found guilty of any over spending, so I can't even understand why they are in this conversation.
Mercedes is in this conversation (since post #3) because: The thread title is not restricted to Red Bull The thread title is not restricted to 2021 Mercedes has been extremely vocal and public with their accusations Before Monday of this week, EVERYTHING was mere suspicion and guessing ... meaning, ALL teams were fair game Before Monday, Red Bull had not yet been found guilty ... and yet, we ALL talked about them before Monday During THIS season (2022), Mercedes' spending has been as suspicious as anyone's ... so, for this season, ALL teams are still fair game In short: the topic of "Formula One Budget Cap" is not restricted to one team, or one season. YES, Red Bull has been found guilty of a minor overspend in 2021. Maybe they will appeal, maybe not. They will most likely be fined and or penalized. Our conversations are "allowed" to continue right? Regarding Red Bull's appeal ... it's my understanding that the decision itself can be appealed, before fines or penalties are even disclosed. Easy enough to ask the counter-point question: why do a couple posters believe that Mercedes is off-limits or out-of-bounds in this discussion, across multiple seasons? It can't be because "they haven't been found guilty" (yet) ... because NO ONE was found guilty before Monday, and yet this thread existed for several pages before Monday.
True, but others have been doing the same. Accusations of cheating are flying all the time in F1 nowadays, just about everything, upgrades, new floors, mirrors, engine modes, etc.. and budget limit has just been added to that list. Mercedes, Red Bull, Ferrari, Haas, McLaren and else have been engaging in that war of words to embarrass, stir the pot, draw attention or destabilise their opponents. Not nice, but that's where we are now. F1 has become a media circus. Team principals never miss an occasion to get the journalists ears or go to social media to slate their rivals. Binotto, Seidl, Horner,Steiner, Capito have done exactly the same as Toto Wolff. And some drivers have joined too. It seem that you are taking the view that only one team, Mercedes, is guilty of this slanging match, and you keep repeating it time and time again. Why? No doubt you are going to give me another sample of your bias opinion. I am bracing myself!
There's plenty of posts in this thread (and others) about how evil Red Bull is ... why not provide some balance? I, for one, do not think that Mercedes is off-limits in a discussion of the F1 budget cap (a discussion across multiple seasons). Toto Wolff was making all kinds of wild accusations, as recently as last week, about "massive overspending" on car development. No evidence or proof, of course. Why aren't we "allowed" to cast some shade, and reflect those same accusations back against Mercedes? Why do a few posters on Fchat need rock-solid proof, when Wolff himself doesn't? Agreed ... other teams were making accusations, too. But it seems that Mercedes is the only one doubling-down since Monday, trying to convince anyone who will listen that "massive"="minor" But again ... why must Mercedes be off-limits in a discussion about the budget cap? No team was "guilty" before Monday ... and yet we all talked about them, right? Or, now that Red Bull has been found guilty of a minor overspend, they're the only team we're allowed to talk about? I don't buy it. Anyway ... if someone doesn't like to read anything negative about Mercedes, the "ignore" button is only a click away (i've already used it in this thread!)
I've been around racing most of my life and the people who are winning are always labelled as cheaters by everyone else. In most cases it is people who are but-hurt that their team got beat. What I find interesting here is that the governing body is recognizing a rule breach which is very different to people 'thinking' that there is one. If, for instance, it is believed that Mercedes has breached the cost cap that could be true but for now it is un-proven and little more than the age old but-hurt cries. Fact is that at present Mercedes is not in breach of the cost cap regulations Red Bull is. How they are in breach and what gain (if any) they derived from it is well beyond the knowledge of anyone here especially me. I'm just going to sit back and see how this plays out. It is far too early days to be offering a strong opinion and I'm curious to see how the FIA behaves as they again find themselves in the middle of controversy.
Sane post. But once again, this thread was raging pretty hard before Monday, when no team was yet determined to be in breach. It's not like we all remained silent, until the FIA announced its decision No matter ... I'll sit out too, and wait for more facts to emerge.
I was expecting a balanced view in your reply, but you failed that test. ALL your posts are just simply anti-Mercedes now. That completely discredits your argument. I and other have pointed out that the accusations haven't come only from one direction, but you stick absolutely to that version. Mercedes must not be off-limits, but your comments MUST also include different parties who also pointed the finger at Red Bull, and you systematically fail to recognise that. One of the main accuser was Binotto, but he seems to get a pass with you. And the others are not even mentioned in your discourse. It's Mercedes, Mercedes and Mercedes only as your leitmotiv. I don't mind reading anything against Mercedes at all, but I would like to see others mentioned too.
THis is why I don't undersnad why Mercedes is getting all the flak on this thread when there is no case against them. !
Mercedes may not be winning now but their dominance is still recent enough memory to instigate cheating conspiracies.
My post quoting Mclaren Team Leadership is quite simple. The teams could or can call the FIA for any needed clarification. Its that simple LOL. Over spend is a team issue. Period. If you didnt have the fore-sight to call for help------------too bad. That applies for all teams. As Zak said - Call the FIA. Overspend is a team failure small or large. They have an agency willing to assist!
"If Red Bull had overspent by two million, they could close the matter by paying the FIA five times, therefore 10 million," Wolff said, quoted by Italy's Corriere dello Sport. "And in any case it would not be fair because it would sanction the right to cheat by paying a fine." Wolff has made clear that if Red Bull's case leads to the notion that overspending and committing a minor breach is worth a team's while, then Mercedes will act accordingly. "Mercedes have already talked about it and, if this were really the point of failure, Mercedes is ready to plan extra budget and related fine to recover performance and return to the top," added Wolff. So is it bye bye financial regs? already lol
I dont see anything proving the RB gained any advantage by the puny overspend. ToTo is a dogs name **** him
Ferrari are planning the same and they should. RedBull have only themselves to blame lol. Preventable and now its just starting a new potential spending spree. Haas and Williams and the others have the most to lose. They will no longer be 'investment' vehicles as a no budget cap will put the smaller teams back where they were. In the back and worth much less. The FIA need to be swift and somewhat harsh to any breach. The spending cap was only good for 1 thing - team increased value. Nothing else. The largest marginal value increase was with smaller teams. F1 has no future. It has no good plan for the future. Its has no major power unit that is relevant as the world goes E even faster. Bio-Fuel?? Who else is working this besides the aviation/sea going shipping world. Well Porsche and Audi were but having bio fuel in F1 wont save many tree's lol. Old 911's will be maintained by a minority of owners who are obsessed with them. Sure they might be able to buy bio-fuel in some fashion for a Sunday drive. The mass market has hardly been a focus. Vettel might help you with your old F1 car. For the masses of the world, its not relevant or even on their minds lol. Mercedes and Ferrari no longer need F1 at all. Its all hope for the best lol. Ferrari are building SUV's now LOL. They need F1 why? They dont. F1 as a sport has zero long term relevance in realistic terms. Certainly next quarter it will show growth. 5 years from now the future could look very very different. The world turns nicely with or without F1. You can 'showcase' tech quite easily without F1. BMW are not stupid enough to be in F1. Porsche have not made any new moves at all with respect to F1 and have no plans to do so publicly yet. Technically they needed to register as an F1 power unit maker by 15 Oct. Without a budget cap new 'makers' have zero reason to invest. The focus of the budget cap was to bring new large makers like VW and others into the sport. If it fails VW/Audi have plenty of time to leave their planned involvement. Does one think VW are not watching this closely. Other than the 'new' Power Unit rules, the budget cap was the major focus for F1's future. Toto is quite smart to broadcast in plain language what they intend on doing. Do you think at all F1 competition is collaborative LOL in a true sense??????????? Good for Toto and Ferrari to show what they intend to do if the FIA provide no major penalty. As if RedBull would not join them to spend more.
The smaller teams like Haas and Williams are garbage with or without a budget cap. The idea that the budget cap is of any importance to F1's future is laughable. F1 has always been an elitist sport, where to be at the top you have to be willing to spend boatloads of money. The old saying of "speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" is as true now as when it was first said. New entrants to the sport want an easy way in. They want to win in the sport without having to do the hard work and make the commitment Ferrari, Mercedes, Red Bull and Honda have made, and have their patience and willingness to stay long term It's delusional, and unfair. It's not the big three's fault that the likes of BMW can't get convince their board to spend $300 million on an F1 program. The fact is the VW group brands, Toyota, BMW, Nissan, and even Honda have a history of playing the racing hokey-pokey around the world. They're in, they're out, they're in, they're out. They've got a history of pulling the plug in racing series suddenly for the stupidest of reasons, after regulations were tailor made for them no less. F1 whoring itself out to those brands is NOT a smart idea. If they're serious, they'll make the commitment the big dogs have made. If not, let them go into WEC.
Lets be honest here...there isn't a ''budget cap'' in F1. What they have is a development cap. Teams like haas, Williams, Alfa etc had a total budget of less than 145 million before, and still have less than that to spend now. Anyone thinking that the likes of Ferrari, Mercedes, Red Bull are spending 145 million (and a little bit extra in one case) are delusional. Merc accounts show they still spend 330 million last year, all that's changed is the document is a little bit more complicated with an extra column of ''non racing expenses'' (for those about to have a fit because I mention Mercedes, I only do so because Mercedes put their filings on Companies House website and has done for years, so it's easy to compare YoY). The current technical regulations went a long way in balancing out the neccessity of money. Insanely complicated bargeboards are done away with for starters, wings got much simpler...and of course the limited wind tunnel time. IMO that should be enough, is very easy to control who spend what time in the wind tunnels so we can have an instant result, not one delayed by 10 months. The budget cap is an illusion. It's M badging and bodykit on a base model 4 series. A carbon fibre sticker over plastic and sell it as the real thing.
So do Redbull apart from this years https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03120645 . But yes i agree with you 100%
If RB overspend by 50 million you'd have a point. The RB18 isn't like this because they spend 0.9% (hell, even the 4.99% for argument sake) more than allowed. The 3 front runners all have 3 vastly different concepts. The Ferrari and Red Bull are clearly the 2 concepts that work. Ferrari pissed away an unholy amount of points that made the RB18 look better than it is, and Binotto is using the budget cap breach as an excuse in the hope that others forget about the massive errors Ferrari all season. Take away the errors and DNF's (from both teams) and Ferrari would lose the championship because of TD39.
I´m still puzzled about that FIA has set a rule but not a punishment for breaking that rule. If a wing is 0,02 mm bigger than expected they know what to do. Now they´re arguing about how "minor" this budget violation is and what penalty would fit.
I get your point. Binotto and Wollf stated that 5 millions equals 0,5s/lap advantage. Honestly I don’t know if this is true.. Ferrari made huge mistakes this year. Red Bull is a well oiled engineering machine lead by a genius. We all know this. Nevertheless if rules were breached like Ferrari did in 2019,punishment should be applied and a severe one.
