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BUFF

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by Bob Parks, Dec 6, 2015.

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  1. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Well, of course they realized that at some point, which is why the tail on the G & H models was so much shorter.
     
  2. Bob Parks

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    From my recall, the tall tail on the B-52 early models was to maintain directional control in crosswind operations on approach and on the ground. When the crosswind landing gear was installed, the tall tail was not needed and shortened. The first time that I saw a B-52 land with the crosswind gear was almost sickening to see the airplane trotting down the runway sideways.
     
  3. beast

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  4. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    Great to watch that video for several reasons. One, I liked seeing what it is like on take off and landing a B-52. Two, I could see the escape hatches over the pilot and copilot's head. I did the final assembly drawings on them in 1952. The shaft that one can see overhead is the shaft that unlocks the latches that hold the hatch in place. It is rotated quick and hard by a 20mm shell. If you watched the disaster caused by Bud Holland you can spot the copilots hatch flying off when the airplane had started its dive and shortly after, the copilot ejects but too late. A lot of memories floating around from my B-52 days. I also noticed that the hatch has a glass skin instead of aluminum.
     
  5. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    So, take-off w/ part fuel then tank up for the mission per your earlier post, Bob.

    Great vid... was hoping for a crosswind to see the cockpit view going sideways down the runway.
     
  6. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Bob- Several aircraft that had a higher gross weight capability than taxi or take-off weight. F-111s among them. Max taxi weight was 92,500 lbs, weight with fuel only about 82,500 lbs, maximum carriage of weapons more than that. I flew with 24 Mk82s for a static display after a Giant Voice bomb competition. Total weight of weapons and BRUs about 14,000 lbs. We had a hard time finding enough pins for all those bombs and BRUs when we got to Bergstrom AFB.
     
  7. Bob Parks

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    Thanks for the info, Taz. I don't remember the weights but the B-52 wing was so flexible that a full outboard fuel load was unmanageable on the ground and possibly too much to lift in a specified runway length. I'll have to look it up sometime. When I was on the TFX (F-111) proposal team I have the figure of 63,000 lbs. and 123,000 popping into my head and the Navy bolting from accepting the "one plane fits all" McNamara concept . He just could not understand the different mission concept and why a heavy USAF airplane could not operate from a carrier with a teak deck instead of three feet of concrete.
     
  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Bob- Even the F-111B was too heavy for the Navy, so they went with the F-14 with the same engines and the Phoenix Fire Control System originally designed for the F-111B.
     
  9. Bob Parks

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    I dug into the web and came up with a total fuel load of 329,000 pounds in the "wet wing" H. That's a hunk and when you have a tanker standing by it makes sense to load up after take off instead of burning most of it to get off the ground. I saw an almost disaster in the mid-50's when Boeing was training an air force general at Boeing Field. They were making a high gross take off to the south that started at the very north end of the runway. The take off run went on and on and everyone began to experience a very strong pucker factor because the end (of the runway) was near. At the south end of the field there is a huge grocery distribution complex that was fast becoming a target . At the very last second the tail came up and then down and the airplane made a steep last minute climb, wings bent up like potato chips. The trainee had mistaken the mic switch for the stabilizer trim switch and was triggering the mic instead of the tail. The Boeing pilot figured it out when he realized that what he was hearing , just repeated clicking, was supposed to be the stab trim. He took over and got the airplane off the ground with nothing left to spare. This was before all the flight test was moved to Edwards and we saw some very exciting things at Boeing Field until then.
     
  10. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    I saw the videos of the F-111B carrier qual trials and the aircraft even looked too big and ponderous. I think history has proven that they made the right decision to dump the B and go with the F-14 instead!
     
  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Bob McNamara was wrong????

    Say it aint so.



    I always figured that SOB should have been buried at the base of the Wall with his head sticking out so the V.N. Vets could pee on him.
     
  12. beast

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  13. Tcar

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  14. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim- USAF would have been happier with the Boeing TFX and the Navy with the F-14, but it only came out half that way. As it turned out, the F-111 was still the best long range interdiction aircraft of its generation. The F-15E, even with all internal and external fuel, only had about 60% of the combat radius of an F-111.
     
  15. Bob Parks

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    I'm surprised to hear someone other than an ex-TFX competition type say that the USAF would have been happier with the Boeing offer. We were told on the side by several USAF officers that the Boeing design was the winner as far as they were concerned. The political shenanigans and rule stretches and changes that went on at the end of the competition were classic Johnson. Boeing info and data were heavily transfused to GD and time was added to the end of the competition before the winner , Gen Dynamics, was announced. And Oh Yes, it would be built in Texas. Some major things in the GD configuration were design elements that had been discarded by Boeing as poor performing. A lot of things have slipped away from me now but one that I remember was the intake trouble that GD's airplane had initially. Then, when the design-build phase started , Gen. Dynamics had to hire a couple of hundred Boeing engineers so they could get the airplane properly designed.
    Taz, no disrespect to you by any means, you have our undying respect for what you guys did in the F-111. I just still have a sour craw from the way that program was conducted after working so hard to present the best airplane. But, the same thing happened on the SST competition...to Lockheed. Boeing did not have as good an airplane as Lockheed did from the beginning so I guess it evens out. Boeing's final configuration was a modified delta like the other guy's.
     
  16. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Bob- LBJ was president and GD was in Ft Worth, so Boeing had an uphill battle all the way. Worked out well for me because I got to play copilot for 18 years. Much better view up front.
     
  17. Bob Parks

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    The best part of it all is that we survived it and it's all in the past. Quite a time. We just got home from celebrating my son-in-law's 61st birthday and I got to thinking that when I was 61 i was working on the 767-X (777). Now he is retiring . Things are sure getting stretched out.
     
  18. beast

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  19. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #44 tazandjan, Dec 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Rob- Yup, that was her. MacNamara gave the logic for picking GD based on having more commonality with the USN version. Turns out that was the wrong reason and the Navy hated both versions. Lots of similarities like all moving slabs, but the Boeing version had ailerons and the GD version only had spoilers that only worked up to 47 degrees of wing-sweep. After that it was only differential slabs for roll. Sales pitches were being made to England and Australia, too, and note this image has UK/Australian markings. The UK eventually bowed out, but the Australians flew them nearly a decade after we retired ours in 1996.
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  20. Tcar

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  21. Bob Parks

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    Correct re the stringers. Many of the skins were machine tapered to variable thicknesses. The front end sort of hung off the mid body and the shear wrinkles were there the day it rolled out. Frames were not the typical rolled "S" section but of an "I' beam section, fabricated, or extruded in some areas. I was thinking about the construction philosophy of the airplane the other day and it is essentially an aluminum freight car framed by 4 huge longerons with wheels at each end. Then the nose and tail were added and the wings put on the top.. The airframe is very flexible in flight.
     
  22. normv

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  23. Bob Parks

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    All of this interest in the B-52 has prompted me to realize that I don't know of anyone who worked on the original. I'm sure that there must be some but I haven't bumped into them. Plant 2 where it was built has been torn down. The only evidence of it is up in Everett at Paine Field where there is a short- tail version sitting there as part of the Museum Of Flight collection. The original had a folding vertical fin because it was too tall for the existing hangars. That first take off was a huge surprise when it didn't appear to be moving fast enough. We all thought that it was another taxi test then there was air under the wheels and it levitated with a black cloud of exhaust behind it. The spring and summer of 1952 was exciting and busy when the flight tests started at Boeing Field.
     
  24. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    When I think of the B-52, I always remember this MITO sequence from the 1963 movie "A Gathering of Eagles". Water injection sure made it a smoky scene! The aircraft are B-52Gs carrying Hound Dog missiles.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq6Hpxyrhyo[/ame]
     
  25. Bob Parks

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    Thanks for that. I witnessed an MTO at Larsen AB in the 60's. If anyone had been standing on the runway shoulder when the 52's were taking off they, No.1; could not be heard if they tried to talk. No.2; could not hear anything but the shrieking crackling roar and probably nothing else for some time after. No3; Might be sick from the racket.
    We watched 6 KC-135 leave and their shrieking roar on water was the loudest thing I ever heard when they went over head. Then the B-52's came soon after and the pall of smoke was so dense that you couldn't see where the airplanes were until they broke out of it. The entire operation was scary and impressive..
     

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