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Bush and Ashcroft requred to obey the Constitution

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by ART360, Dec 19, 2003.

  1. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    In the Padilla case today, the 2nd cicuit court of appeals, applying the US constitution and a 1971 US Government law designed to restrict the power of the executive branch, told Bush, et al that locking someone up without any recourse, even to deny the charges, was wrong and would not be tolerated.

    See:

    http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/

    forthe well reasoned and well founded opinion.

    I know, its 53 pages but for those of who who've been such strong supporters of this government it should be required reading. Even the dissent indicated that this administration had gone too far.

    Art
     
  2. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
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    I agree with you 100 percent.
     
  3. tvrfreak

    tvrfreak F1 Rookie
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    Right on.

    The dissenting opinion was easy enough. I am now about halfway through the decision. I am really impressed by Donna R. Newman, Esq., for her next friend strategy in the habeas corpus writ. That must have taken serious guts--it seems like Rumsfield's office was doing everything possible to stifle her. Interesting also how the court holds Rumsfeld as the proper respondent/custodian.
     
  4. tvrfreak

    tvrfreak F1 Rookie
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    Art,
    do you agree with their finding that the US is outside the zone of combat? The judges make this a cornerstone of their finding. I can see their point that the President is legislating, thereby exceeding his authority. I can also follow along that since such powers are granted only to Congress, and not to the Executive, this is a violation of the Constitution.

    But I would think that as of Sept. 11th, 2001, the US is very much within the zone of combat. What could they be basing their viewpoint on when they say that it isn't?

    Edit: Found the answer in some subtle wording in the summary section. :)
     
  5. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    This is as it should be, however, my only question is how come the liberals/progressives or whatever these people are calling themselves this week, want to amend it to suit their agenda whenever they are held to the same standard.
     
  6. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    This part is PC & stupid, ever since Sept 11 the US has been the taregt for the combat, Duh!!!!! Ive heard that the FBI stopped over 100 attacks in 2003 & I heard details about foiled attacks on Miami & Vegas. How much more than 3,000 + dead do you need to qualify as a zone of combat ? Stupid
     
  7. Evolved

    Evolved F1 Veteran
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    What A LOT of people do not realize is that there are bad people out there who want to kill them because you are Americans. They want to kill you your, wife, your mother and all your children too.

    They do not care about your compassion for them.


    They are a lot like "The terminator" They are almost machine drones who absolutly will not stop until all Americans suffer and die at their hands or we kill them. It's scarey but it is that simple.

    Do the courts have the right to give a military POW his due process? Absolutely not. There were American disentors in WW2 who worked for the Nazi's. They were tried by the military and shot. Judges are not super human. They are people who will work within their own biases and opinions. In this case a lot of people think they are wrong.
     
  8. airbarton

    airbarton Formula 3

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    Just in case you were wondering about this poor inocent man the goverment is persecuting!

    www.cnn.com/2002/US/06/11/muhajir.background/index.html

    I don't think anyone in thier right mind would see this as the government picking on this poor guy! My guess is if this guy had actually carried out an attack, you guys would be saying how incompetent the administration was for not preventing it. I don't think you are going to be happy no matter what they do!
     
  9. airbarton

    airbarton Formula 3

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  10. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    Charles:

    You're missing the point: Who knows whose telling the truth? What if, just what if, the government is wrong! It's happened before. Remember that poor b@astard they accused of the Atlanta bombings? Turns out they were wrong! What the court has done is to allow American Citizens, protected by the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights on American soil to exercise his or her rights to fight the charges brought.

    This doesn't mean Padilla gets a free pass. It just means that the government must prove its claims. Holding someone incommunicato for 18 months without a lawyer, leaves someone without any tools to prove their innocence. Allowing this is the first step to a police state where the people have no rights. A persons right to live in a free society is the primary goal of our Constitution. Allowing the President or his Chronies to void that right is the equivalent to suspending the Constitution, and in my humble opinion that behavior is treason and a much worse threat than any terrorist I've seen.

    Art
     
  11. writerguy

    writerguy F1 Veteran

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    Thanks Art
    Always like to see that there is someone else out there who gets a little creeped out by the "Secretive" Rumsfeld Ashcroft and Cheny boys.
    For most of them they got an early education on how the constitiution is supposed to apply to the executive branch as well as the rest of us when they worked in the Nixon white house.
    Go back and re read "All the Presidents Men" and refresh how nasty and down right awful the Nixon administration was.

    At sometime down the road a little crack is going to appear in the armor, and I fear Iran Contra or Watergate will not even come close to the abuse of freedoms this group has perpetrated in the name of "Homeland" Security.
    Some of their "Rules" are getting out of control like making EPA reports on pollution "Sensitive" doccuments so no one can check on hazardous Materials dumping....
    Restrictions on Legal council... Come on guys let the schlep have a lawyer. and remember that like Inocent untill PROVEN guilty. No doubt he is a evil f**k but lets try a little Due process please.
     
  12. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    I don't see any soldiers carring rifles and munitions through the streets,
    I don't see any battles beiing fought in my part of the country,
    I don't see any casualties filling up the hospitals,

    What kind of a war zone do you mean?
     
  13. tvrfreak

    tvrfreak F1 Rookie
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    When Al Qa'eda operatives used planes as bombs and flew them into buildings, it constituted an act of war. Where the act of war was carried out could be construed as the combat zone, no?

    Of the three observations you make, only one is really pertinent ...a combat zone is not defined as someplace where you see causalties in hospitals. And soldiers carry rifles and munitions through the streets during peacetime too.

    Not much point belabouring this...I already found my answer in the text of the ruling. Perhaps you should read it too.
     
  14. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    Although the opinion comments about the combat zone, in that regard I think the court erred. I would think that a US citizen, not in uniform of another state, arrested within the USA, no matter what, should not be deprived of his rights under the Bill of Rights. If the President had the right to designate the US as a combat zone, and thus effect an end run around the bill of rights, how do we protect ourselves? Answer is we can't, and therefore, the government should not be able to circumvent the expicit rights granted in the Bill of Rights, one of which is for counsel.

    Art
     
  15. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Art,

    I have argued with you about the war in Iraq. But I am not just a blind follower of the current administration. I am with you 100% on this matter. I think it's ridiculous for people to be denied their rights.

    One of the major problems I have with the current administration is that a lot of things are being justified based on dubious arguments. Much of what is allowed under the patriot act is based on dubious claims. And it pains me when the blind supporters say "but if you're not doing anything wrong, what do you have to worry about?".

    I'm glad someone finally reeled in the executive branch on this one.
     
  16. LouB

    LouB Formula 3

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    Osama must be rolling around laughing about these rullings.

    I think all the folks held in Cuba or wherever should be released to the homes and personnel responsiblity of the members of the 9th circuit and others who think the constitution is a suicide pact.
     
  17. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    There is really nothing damning here at all. The first link is a story about British politicians who are upset that the USA has held prisoners unjustly. That's what the original thread is about - so basically just agreeing with it. It does show our "system" works though since these prisoners status is actually being reviewed. We shall see.

    The second link talks about two that died in an Afghan prison. It suggests they were beaten to death, but there is no proof of that, and the investigation is ongoing. One guy had something like a heart attack after he apparently was kicked in the nuts, raising his blood pressure and causing his pre-existing heart conditioon to kill him. Sort of like the fat guy in Cali who died fighting with the cops. Nothing too damning there. The other guy died of a blood clot in the lungs and it's under investigation. Way too early to draw any conclusions. We can assume justice will be served - after all, we recently heard about the soldier who was disciplined for his actions against prisoners in Iraq. No reason to think there is any coverup or conspiracy.

    The third story is pretty stupid. It's a story about how Afghan forces killed a lot of the Taliban soldiers who were fighting in that prison where they captured John Walker Lindt. It says the Afghan forces took the survivors away in trucks and treated them badly, then shot a lot of them and buried them in a mass grave. It says the US should be brought up on war crimes because special forces troops were there during all this. Its silly because they say NOTHING about the Afghan involvement, only continually blaming the US. Pretty one-sided if you ask me....is it "ok" or even expected for Afghans to act this way, but not the US? Why not lay blame equally, or even weight it towards the Afghans who actually allegedly committed this act? furthermore, one of the claims is that dead Taliban were found in the prison with their hands tied. So what? The prisoners were revolting - I'm sure they dind't ALL have time to free themselves of their shackles. And we were bombing, shooting, and killing as many as we would - it was a battle! So of course some died that were shackled. Again, so what? They talk about how US special forces were present while the survivors were tortured and killed... any proof of that? The guy who released this "documentary" has no eye witnesses, no proof, nothing (it seems). He also agreed to an interview by the "World Socialist Party". He says he has no ulterior motives... sure seems like he does to me! The article and the producer talk about contacting Newsweek about the story and how they talked to a reporter numerous times, but the reporter declined to cover the story in the way the film producer liked. The article then goes on to bash and insult the reporter, criticizing his past stories, and criticizing and insulting Newsweek as a publication. Does that sound unbiased and genuine to you? Doens't to me. Sounds like a guy with a chip on his shoulder against the USA and against those that would disagree with him. So I tend to discount his story because I don't think he is giving me the honest truth, and since I don't care to take the time to do my own investigation into whether US SF troops were present or even "helped" Afghan soldiers kill taliban prisoners, then I'm not going to just accept the first person who walks along with obviously biased "proof".
     
  18. TestShoot

    TestShoot F1 World Champ

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    well, terrorism does not equal zone of combat. what we are being subjected to in our own country for our 'security' is a bogus excuse for a pseudo-police state. I am all for the us of ****ing a but they are going too far

    zeil heil mr rumsfeld

    (still pissed that army lost to navy)
     
  19. LouB

    LouB Formula 3

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    I think its a huge mistake which we will be very sorry for to treat these detainees as law inforcement issues with all the "baggage' of Miranda, surpression of evidence, dream team lawyers (which we will pay for) etc etc. We are at war. These guys want to kill you , your wife and kids and all your neighbors. They want to kill in the 100,000 of thousands if Alla will bless them. You have to connect dots and a have a strong tilt towards being safe rather than sorry.

    Didn't a lawyer in the Afgan operations room in the early stages of the war stop an almost certain hit on Mulla Omar? Can you imagin a lawyer telling Patten not to attack? He would have shot him. I wonder if we really have the stuff to win this war.
     
  20. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    The thing is Lou, that while I am all in favor of treating these folks like the animals they are, we first have to establish that they are who we think they are. We do that through the legal process. There are undoubtedly people right now being held who have done nothing wrong, and that is not right. Can you imagine if you were put away and denied a lawyer, or even the right to have someone hear your plea? Basically taken in the night and locked away until someone decides (if ever) to release you. I dunno if you remember the 80's but thats what things were like in Russia with the KGB, and that was "for the motherland" too.
     
  21. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    The group that would have us wavie our rights were born 30 years too late. They should have been good germans. For all the good it did Germany. We won that war, because we didn't allow the wantabe Nazis to take control,and our ideas, turned into weapons that could be used. Remember if the wantabes had ahd their way, Oppenheimer wouldn't have been in charge of Livermore, and we might not have goten the bomb when we did.

    Don't forget: we are what we are: free. If we lose that freedom, why do we fight? Think about that.

    Art
     
  22. LouB

    LouB Formula 3

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    I thought a big part of the reason we won WW11 was our allies the Russians were as ruthless as the Nazis and we were close behind e.g. firebombing the civilians of Dresden and Tokyo. We would have also nuked all of Germany if they hadn'd folded before we had the bomb ready. All was necessary to win and thats what we are facing today.


    Being 'nice' to terrorists may impress the left who never saw a thug they couldn't feel sorry for but it shows weakness and encourages those intent on killing us.

    Forget all the philosophy, the telling question is--Would you order the attack on Osama and his total leadership if they were seen together but surounded by 20 children? You have 5 seconds in the comand bunker to decide yes or no before the oppourtunity is gone.
     
  23. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    I go tthis in the mail. It is a joke, but on point:

    Teacher arrested at airport

    At New York's Kennedy airport today, an individual later discovered to be a public school teacher was arrested trying to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, a protractor, a setsquare, a slide rule, and a calculator.

    At a morning press conference, Attorney General John Ashcroft said he believes the man is a member of the notorious al-gebra movement. He is being charged by the FBI with carrying weapons of math instruction. "Al-gebra is a fearsome cult," Ashcroft said. "They desire average solutions by means and extremes, and sometimes go off on tangents in a search of absolute value. They use secret code names like "x" and "y" and refer to themselves as "unknowns", but we have determined they belong to a common denominator of the axis of medieval with coordinates in every country. "As the Greek philanderer Isosceles used to say, there are 3 sides to every triangle," Ashcroft declared.

    When asked to comment on the arrest, President Bush said, "If God had wanted us to have better weapons of math instruction, He would have given us more fingers and toes. "I am gratified that our government has given us a sine that it is intent on protracting us from these math-dogs who are willing to disintegrate us with calculus disregard. Murky statisticians love to inflict plane on every sphere of influence," the President said, adding: "Under the circumferences, we must differentiate their root, make our point, and draw the line." President Bush warned, "These weapons of math instruction have the potential to decimal everything in their math on a scalene never before seen unless we become exponents of a Higher Power and begin to factor-in random facts of vertex."

    Attorney General Ashcroft said, "As our Great Leader would say, read my ellipse. Here is one principle he is uncertainty of: though they continue to multiply; their days are numbered as the hypotenuse tightens around their necks."
     
  24. writerguy

    writerguy F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2003
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    Art that is the funniest thing I have read in a lllllloooon nnnng time


    Right up there with the real story about a retired Army Colonal who was detained at an airport for carrying a pointed metal object ... His Congressional Medal of Honor....
     

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