Art, I did not. However, my dad won the CMOH (among other things) in WW2, and my brother was a SEAL from 1973 to 1989. Also, 95 does not extrapolate to tousands in 11 months, IMO.
Dave: My post was 1000 to 2000 before we get out of there. That's about right at 95 per month. However, the casualties seem to be increasing. If that acceleration rate increases then my figures may be low. I did review my earlier posts. I predicted thousands of casualties, mostly Iraqi, and guess what: there were. Even though this administration refueses to keep track of the actual numbers, there are other sources, using the only techiques available, and they come up with aobut 10 - 20k dead Iraqis both civilian and military. I did also predict that any occupation would end up in a West Bank type of situation. I'm unsure if we're there yet, but we're certainly on the way. Your dad sounds like a true hero. Art
Art - I will never say that 2000 dead US soldiers is not a big deal. But you are attempting to equate what is happening in Iraq to what did happen in Viet Nam. Now, I didn't serve in Nam....the sperm that made me wasn't even in existence! But, I do know that you served, and your experiences there were probably terrible. I'd never take that from you. But, you gotta accept the fact that the two situation have been, and will be, totally different! Assume you are correct, and 2000 soldiers die over a two year period in Iraq - I don't think it'll hit that number, but let's assume. HOW CAN YOU COMPARE 2000 TO 65,000???? For whatever it's worth, it seems like you are completely jaded in regards to the US government as a result of Nam. It seem like, regardless of the story, you'll distrust because of **** that you went through almost half a decade ago. Do you truly think that you are being objective about the whole affair, or is a little personal bias slipping in? I'm not trying to flame, btw.
"That is exactly what we did with my generation, and I'm sure that times haven't changed. Don't argue with me over this, I have specifics, with names, addresses and phone numbers of my friends who that occured to, and there are more than one." If that's the case, why would we want another bunch of bumbling Democrats running the show in Washington like we had back in 1964 when LBJ and his cronies took over? LBJ waded halfway across the Vietnam river, decided that the waters were too rough, and then decided to wade back to shore. And all the while, McNamara was holding his hand telling him how everything would be fine. LBJ threw in the towel, passed off the Vietnam hot potato to Tricky Dicky, then retired to Texas where he could yank the ears of a few beagles without the press snapping pictures. Now that's a legacy that any liberal Democrat could be proud of.
Arlie: correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Nixon and Ford end the Viet Nam War, and shortly after Carter, wasn't Reagan in office? The Agent Orange debacle came to light under Reagan. This isn't able political parties, its about my government's absolute failiure to take care of those who served. Those men who served in Iraq 1 had problems and did anyone take care of them. It took Schwartkauf (sp) to make a public out cry to start getting them treatment, and even today, a lot of them aren't getting what they need and deserve. As to the argument that Iraqi isn't Viet Nam. It isn't. But when you see the same story being re-told, with almost the same lines, the story seems more and more alike. Nibbles: when you're done with finals read: Viet Nam a History: I'll bring you the cite, etc. next week. There were only 1500 casualties in Viet Nam in the first 3 years of combat! It wasn't until the last 3 years that the casualties grew. We kept getting told that we were winning, that we had the support of the people, that the new government would be able to take care of things. All of that was a lie. Because I'm into motorcycles, I frequently go to: roadracingworld.com. There is a letter from a racer, stationed in Northern Iraq. In his note, he details that in what has been descriped as a "pacified area" that the troops can't go out without bring attacked. He is one unhappy camper. I also ready the various arabic papers. They describe the people fighting us as resistance and freedom fighters from the occupieers. I guess what I'm getting at is that we've been lied to on the way in, and it looks like we're still being lied to. That tells me that over the long haul, there is trouble, and that usually means dead boys. 2000 is a big number of dead American boys. Its about 2000 too many, if there was no risk to us initially. The largest serial killer we've had in the US only did 48 people to my knowledge. I don't understand the difference between causing 2000 dead and 48 (other than size of the dead). This isn't a good deal, and it isn't going to end well. Art
"They describe the people fighting us as resistance and freedom fighters from the occupieers." Where were these so call "resistance and freedom fighters" when Saddam Hussein was torturing and murdering his own citizens by the thousands? When Iraqi citizens were being paraded into the local police station torture chamber for a few days of "exercise", where were these patriotic Iraqi freedom fighters? That's not hard to figure out. They were part of the SAME group of thugs and thieves who were doing Saddam's bidding by rounding up the Iraqi citizens and herding them into the torture chambers! These jerks aren't "resistance" fighters or "freedom" fighters. They're just a bunch of ner-do-well opportunists who were cut from the same cloth as Ali Baba and his Fourty Theives. If you offered these dissadent cut throats a $50,000 a year job working to rebuild the Iraqi infrastructure, they'd walk the other way because they prefer their life of mayhem over one of productive labor. Isn't that what all lazy dictators and their followers have in common? Hitler and his henchmen, Stalin and his buddies, Pol Pot (sp) and his Cambodian Killing Field Kronies, Saddam and his Bathe parte boys, etc. Their all birds of a feather. Weed 'em all out with a Napalm Haircut and build a McDonalds, a shopping mall, and a multiplex theater over the scortched earth. The Iraqi people will be watching Terminator 4 and munching on a Big Mac without giving the Bathe Party Freedom Fighters a second thought. Would you like fries with that, Sheik?
Arlie: Your problem is that you don't see there are usually two, or more sides to each story. The world isn't black and white. That attitude got us into this mess, and then it turned out we were wrong on our premise. Could be we were wrong about more than just the WMDs, huh? Don't let that bother you, keep going down the path you're on. As I've said before, your place in life speaks legends about your ability and your reasoning power. There is more to what is going on that you read in Fox or the equivelent. While some of the resistance may indeed be criminals, so are those we've put in power over there: The Past President of the Ruling Council was convicted of Fraud in Jordan. We put him in charge. Claims of fraud, cost overruns, stupidity, etc. are rampant in our occupation of Iraq. All of those things can clearly lead to dissatisfaction by the population over there. Lastly, why are our deaths increasing? Art
Art said: "As I've said before, your place in life speaks legends about your ability and your reasoning power." Hey Art, if my "place in life" is so BAD, how come you spend your free time hanging out on the SAME web site that I do? Sounds like you're just bitter about events that occured nearly 40 years ago, and you can't stand anybody like me that doesn't buy your condescending, liberalized, San Francisco-ized, politically correct, Democrat loving, Feinstein worshipping, Al Gore certified point of view. I'll bet that people like me, who don't have YOUR ability and YOUR reasoning power, are really holding back the liberalized world and their great attempt to elevate themselves above the commoners like me and the rest of us "unwashed masses". Maybe within a few generations we will all have YOUR amazing, incredible reasoning powers and we will be qualified to discuss political issues that also affect OUR lives. Until that time, please hold us by the hand and guide us through our pathetic lives with your amazing intellect. Yawn, snore, zzzzz...
