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  1. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    I get where you're coming from..

    But I think there's too much buying into myths. Like my original post, I think we're paying too much to start with, being oversold a product and then being asked / expected to pay too much for its upkeep. I think we should challenge all of these dynamics

    And again, genuine rich "supercar" folk are buying 488s, 720s and Huracans

    I think ex-supercars, using older technology, with methods of maintenance that should be extremely well-trodden and well-known should cost the consumer less

    Otherwise we are buying into a "supercar" myth that really should only apply to people buying relatively new supercars

    We can't on the one hand say these cars are old and relatively old hat to look after while by the same token also be saying we're in the "supercar club" now so we should be forced to pay up

    And on Porsche.. I was able to maintain my 911 like most people would maintain a regular Audi. I don't get why it should cost more

    Yes, certain 360 parts can be pricey but alternatives are out there, cheaper alternative methods are out there and honest garages are out there. It's all just a little bit few and far between, I think, because of the Ferrari myths involved


     
  2. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula Junior
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    May 25, 2019
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    @Rosso_United_1999 -
    I'd have to disagree that the pricing of the 360 is too high. It is what the market will support. That's the bottom line. If the market won't support the price, it drops.

    I too, am in the market for a 360 (Spider MT) and read your tale with sorrow. Luckily for me, I have more budget and wider access to cars (the US) so I believe my search will be less arduous than yours.

    You might consider contacting a broker. Someone who has deeper understanding of the vehicle and can work as your advocate might be able to save you the trouble of looking at old dogs and present you with something you can work with.

    Good luck and I wish you a happy ending!
     
    paulchua likes this.
  3. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    It's interesting this one..

    When I bought my last, admittedly older, higher mileage 997 (that barely gave me a genuine problem in 3 years), it cost me less than 25% of its basic new price

    But 360s are easily fetching 50-60% of their original cost price. I know inflation comes into it but you get what I mean

    Even accessing a 20 year old 360 (10 years older than my 997) is costing significantly more than I think it ever should

    They aren't collector pieces yet! They should still be driver's cars. This "appreciating potential" thing is total make believe ********* at this point. The 360 isn't the Testarossa just yet

     
  4. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    About a billion 360s have just landed on eBay UK so we'll see what happens with em I guess! :)

     
  5. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    All old cars that are 10+ years old are prone to failure its just the cost of their parts pale into insignificance in comparison.

    Audi R8 and most Porsches are mass produced models with part sharing from VAG group. Slightly above the mundane but very highly mass produced cars and I can even feel the wiff of that in my Bentley (also VAG). Which is good and bad in equal measures. A hell of a lot more of them around than 360's which are tiny by volume in comparison.

    Don't forget most other cars your comparing with will continue to depreciate until they are virtually worthless, I expect the 360 now and could actually go up (which usually does happen with Ferraris when they go past a certain point in their life),so factor that into your total cost of ownership figures. Work out how long you plan to keep the car and while the 360 will require higher cost maintenance it will depreciate less.

    Sadly the Audi production numbers are so great to the point of them being invisible on the road, fine if that's what you want but no matter what Audi do to the R8 it ain't no Ferrari and they will never position it as such as they own Lamborghini for that.

    I feel like cars Audi are all very well but they are made by committees and priorities are different , and no I absolutely don't consider them comparable at all. Not a rose tinted view, when you buy a Ferrari you step into a community quite different to that of the Audi forums. Their designs are not driven by passion but mainstream demands so diluted in focus, that doesn't mean they are bad, just very different. Like I said different gravy.
     
  6. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    They made around 16,000 360s you know?

    I'm not sure Audi made many more of the first edition R8s..

    Again it's the Ferrari cachet attachment, exemplified by the fact that exactly the same part for a 360 can be bought for a Maserati or Fiat for a third or less of the price..

    Don't always believe the hype, as they say..


     
  7. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula Junior
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    Jun 20, 2017
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    All true but... the 911 is a mass produced car. Which only means that more indies to repair them, more turnover of replacement parts and shared parts, and the amount for sale as used cars is much greater. All of which factors into the cost thing. Have you seen what an SD2 or Leonardo reader costs? That's a significant investment for a shop to take on for the occasional repair to a 15 to 20 year old Ferrari. And don't think I didn't love my old 993. It was a terrific car. I truly enjoyed it. But my 993 sticker price was 62K. That's considerably less than the sticker of a new 360 in 1999. It's all relative. And I really don't think I see anyone saying that the 360 is a collectible or appreciating right now. The prices are what they are. And I agree, the 360s seem to season on the market for a good while. But for whatever reason that is, I've never got the impression that the sellers tried to impress me with the old adage: "but it's a Ferrari".

    And unrelated perhaps, but, I've been following the 458 market now for a few months. It certainly seems like a lot of those cars are also seasoning on the market as well. So I'm not sure what to make of that other than there's just not enough buyers for used Ferraris these days-- 360s OR 430s and 458s. Yet the prices never seem to go down significantly. Go figure.
     
  8. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula Junior
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    May 25, 2019
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    >> Don't forget most other cars your comparing with will continue to depreciate until they are virtually worthless

    This is one of the reasons I am looking at the 360. My last car, a 2017 SL63 was really great, with one glaring flaw. It depreciated extremely fast and would eventually depreciate to nearly zero. Ten year old SL63's can be had for $10k. Then there was all the computerized mumbo jumbo and a nanny bitching at me everytime I tried to avoid a pothole or road hazard. The SL63 is a fine car as long as the warranty holds but after that, look out below! The price drops like a stone.

    The 360 is a relatively simple car that has a flat value right now (according to Hagerty's). So besides the car being absolutely stunning, it's got a stable value. I like that. Not looking for an investment but I want a car that I can keep for 10 years or more and perhaps my heirs will be able to cash it in for what I paid for it.

    Hagerty price valuation for a 2003 Base model:


    Hagerty price valuation for a 2003 Spider MT:

     
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  9. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    Traders must dearly love the way they look under the showroom lights.. :D

     
  10. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    And if I was a trader with a 360 that had been sat collecting dust for literally years, I'd definitely be tempted to make the deal good for the first person that showed genuine interest and then use that cash to flip something else more sellable

    Surely, fluidity and liquidity is better than static stock?


     
  11. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula Junior
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    I certainly agree. I made and offer on a car at a dealer that had a 360 on the floor plan that I had been following for about 3 months. It was a fair offer and he turned it down. I continued to follow that car long after I purchased my 360. A year later, he was already down to the price I had offered him. A year and a half later, the car was still in his stock.

    Certainly makes no sense to me either. As one used car dealer once said to me: "a fast nickel beats a slow dime every time" He also said his first offer is usually his best offer.
     
    randkin and Rosso_United_1999 like this.
  12. Sundayjumper

    Sundayjumper Rookie

    Jun 19, 2019
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    Steve

    Literally two posts earlier !
     
  13. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    A little bit misquoted.

    All historical evidence suggests longer term that they 'could' appreciate. This was in the context of depreciation. Nobody has a crystal ball but previous models like F355 and F348 (and again in some markets) have so it's likely at some point. Today prices are stable, they are not really going down apart from seasonal adjustments. Its not the case for all cars and we are already seeing niches go north such as gated cars and so forth.
     
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  14. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    They made 50% more 360s than 355s

    So not only could people be waiting another 5-10 years for genuine appreciation to happen, there's only a 50% chance it will..

     
  15. kes7u

    kes7u Formula Junior

    Oct 18, 2017
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    Yep. 50% chance they appreciate. 50% chance they depreciate. 50% chance they stay exactly the same!!!:cool:

    You've brought up some interesting points about the way things SHOULD be regarding these cars and service, etc. And more, perhaps, the way you WANT or WISHED them to be. But obviously they aren't. This is the world of Ferrari, like it or not!

    Regarding these cars and service, the market sorts them out. Although many are not selling, sellers remain reluctant to reduce the price. Perhaps 1 or a few sellers will drop their prices and completely change the course of the market. Perhaps the same is true for service and parts. But perhaps not. I think its better going into this with an eyes wide open point of view as to how things ARE, rather than lamenting how you feel things SHOULD be.

    Just my $0.02.
    Kevin
     
  16. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    Ultimately, the only people that dictate how traders and service people act is us, the consumer.

    If no one buys 20yo Ferrari 360s being sold at £65,000, they will, eventually, be sold at 55 grand

    If people refuse to pay £3200 for a belt change, those prices will come down too.

    I get why the newest in-demand Pista is flipped for more than it cost. I get why a Testarossa will fetch £150k

    I just don't quite see why so many are so willing to spend 75% of the original cost for a car with 20,000 miles (or more......), that was one of the first mass-produced Ferraris (as many 360s as gen 1 R8s) and has quite a lot of mechanical liabilities..

    Markets tend to work on logic and realism more than hope and expectation and I think people are getting a bit too hopeful at the minute


     
  17. kes7u

    kes7u Formula Junior

    Oct 18, 2017
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    Well, isn't this an example of markets not necessarily working on logic and realism, or at least what you think them to be?

    FWIW, I bought my 2000 360 with 15k miles rossa corsa over tan. Near perfect PPI. $80k. I don't think I underpaid or overpaid. I think I paid exactly what the car was worth to me. I don't ever intend to make money. I hope to never sell it!

    Kevin
     
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  18. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    No, I don't disagree

    Unfortunately, it's a market that I think is assuming that, like a lot of other Ferrari models, the 360 will appreciate

    And I think that is being driven largely by very hopeful traders and dumb-ass buyers buying into all of that

    Maybe I am completely wrong, at this moment in time, I think we're way way off 360s becoming some kind of vintage collectable. And it's supremely frustrating for everyday consumers (like me) that really want to actually drive these cars

    I know of probably ten cars that have been sat being overpriced in dealerships for anything from 6 months to 3 years. And remember I'm just one guy making enquiries. Those cars would all have sold were the prices more realistic

    And that's just my 2p :)




     
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  19. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula Junior
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    May 25, 2019
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    >> I know of probably ten cars that have been sat being overpriced in dealerships for anything from 6 months to 3 years.

    Are any of these cars fit for your liking? If so, walk into the dealership with a cashier's check (or whatever they call it on your side of the pond) made for the maximum you'd pay for the car and talk turkey. In my experience, walking in with actual cash can make a deal. Many people are full of crap. Many people don't qualify to buy expensive toys. Proving you mean business can make a difference.
     
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  20. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    Yeah, it's definitely a strategy

    The last place knew I was legit. Really they should all know I'm legit because I've already owned one of these cars.

    The last deal broke down for two reasons

    1. They weren't prepared to get the car mechanically fit (suspension issues may have posed issues at MOT and really who wants a dynamic car like a 360 with suspension liabilities + specialist involved with car didn't have any space for the work for weeks)

    2. The deal was brokered on basis that the price was cut back as clutch was nearly dead (67%) and that fact (I think) just cut into their margin / idea of value for the car

    So essentially they wanted me to take the hit rather than them. Correcting the car fully meant the deal was almost back to their window price. Overpriced in my eyes, deal over.

    I think for a car that has been sat collecting dust for two years there needs to be more realism involved.

    I know a deal when I see one and I also know when things aren't tilting my way.



     
  21. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
  22. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    Labor rates are not going down, and the hrs required for most maintenance tasks are pretty well established. There is not enough market for Ferrari maintenance for smaller shops with lower overhead to get involved. More likely the belt change interval will just go up or the cars will just become garage queens (whether or not they are actually queens). I think there are quite a few owners who would not be owners, me included, were it not for the fact that they are DIY on maintenance.
     
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  23. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    But surely won't a DIY service and the resultant lack of a stamp in the service book just harm resale value?

     
  24. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    You can't be *****'in about cost of entry and maintenance for a driver on one hand and then worry about resale value on the other.
     
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  25. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    I never tend to massively worry about resale value as I buy my cars at the right price and don't use them as investments. Bottom end cars will always hold their value better. I was just curious about people that DIYd everything..

    But yes, stamps in service books help sell cars. And I like to be able to move on quickly

     

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