News
  1. Dewinator

    Dewinator Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 22, 2017
    1,093
    OP, have you considered the possibility that the higher end of the market isn't as overpriced as you think it is, precisely because those cars don't tend to be the "endless nightmare" you speak of?

    Yes turnover is very slow but this could easily be just as attributable to illiquidity rather than to sellers being unrealistic about their car's value. If you want nice one in a specific combo, particularly manual, you may have to wait a long time for one to come on the market and jump on it when it does.
     
    ZA3879 and paulchua like this.
  2. imahorse

    imahorse Karting

    Nov 25, 2017
    152
    WI
    Full Name:
    Dustin
    Audi's most expensive car is a poor comparison (in terms of buying) to one of Ferrari's currently more inexpensive cars. You are comparing apples to artichokes. Another thing to keep in mind is Ferraris are made to be pretty and go fast. Reliability and longevity aren't their top priorities. If you want a cheap one, there are going to be problems. If you want one without problems it's going to cost more. If you don't do the work yourself, you are going to get bent over the service desk while the guy tells you to neigh like a horse. That's just the way it is. No internet thread is going to change that. There are a lot of hassles and irritations in buying and owning a 20 year old Ferrari, but to some of us, it is all worth it. I personally enjoy working on my car and learning as much as I can about the mechanics of it. That is sometimes just as memorable as driving it to me. Plus it isn't rare that a shop says they did some work and even provide receipts without ever doing that work.
     
  3. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    97
    The way I gauge is is that these cars require fairly constant TLC. Perhaps every Ferrari does, but I think it's fair to say that a 360 will. It's a highly strung car often driven close to the red line. And there's nothing wrong with driving a Ferrari in that manner. But there has to be a balancing force to that type of driving

    So on that basis, I'm not that convinced that paying more really guarantees anything, except that you paid more. And that your future resale value will be more solid if you don't drive it.

    I honestly can't see those buying at the expensive side of the market even driving these cars to find out what their condition is. They will most likely get flipped again eventually and other elements of the car will expire and cause problems for anyone that actually starts driving them properly



     
  4. jcurry

    jcurry F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 16, 2012
    9,997
    Lk Stevens, WA
    Full Name:
    Jim
    and there are plenty of threads talking about a shop that says they did some work and provided some receipts but did such a bad job they might as well have never done that work.
     
    paulchua and Rosso_United_1999 like this.
  5. imahorse

    imahorse Karting

    Nov 25, 2017
    152
    WI
    Full Name:
    Dustin
    That certainly happens too. The Ferrari game is a very expensive one. When there is lots of money being thrown around often times shady and corrupt people get involved and try to cut corners to maximize profit.
     
    paulchua and Rosso_United_1999 like this.
  6. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    97
    Cars are subjective. The R8 V10, like it or not, is a really capable car. Different of course

    The actual comparison was made in terms of Audi's apparent mass-produced-ness

    However, a comparatively similar amount of gen 1 R8s (25k over 9 years were built as 360s (16k over 6).. Which kinda led me back to suggesting the 360 is hardly a rarity in the market. Yes, it's not an Audi, but there's a whole bunch of 360s out there.

    So you either look at it one of two ways, either the older R8s are underpriced or the 360 is over-inflated. Having looked at the market and experienced what I've seen, I tend to think the latter.

    Clearly, current 360 owners won't want to see it like that, but people entering the market definitely might and that can ultimately bear the same effect

     
  7. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 20, 2017
    707
    Melbourne Florida
    Full Name:
    KGC
    Sometimes sellers want to sell to someone less knowledgeable. Knowing your way around the car you want to buy can be a deal killer for the seller. I have flat out told sellers that they need to sell the car I'm looking at to someone who doesn't know as much as I do about the car I'm buying. I do my homework. Some sellers know a lot of folks don't and let their wishful thinking and emotions dictate a purchase.
     
    paulchua and Rosso_United_1999 like this.
  8. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    97
    100% can believe this. Almost tragic in a way.

    That phrase, "waiting for the right buyer.."

    You could replace those words with so many others

     
  9. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 20, 2017
    707
    Melbourne Florida
    Full Name:
    KGC
    No not necessarily. I got top dollar for my 993. It was extremely well maintained by ME. The condition of the car spoke for itself. I kept receipts and I marked the maintenance in a ledger.

    I believe folks see an impeccable example and they conclude that it has not been abused and it must have been well loved. Again a car with a laundry list of owners verses a car that one has owned for many years kind of helps ones confidence that it was not just a passing fancy but rather a serious owner who was more than just driving the car to be noticed.
     
  10. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 20, 2017
    707
    Melbourne Florida
    Full Name:
    KGC
    I bought my 360 about two years ago. I paid a high-er end price for a really nice car with 22k miles on it. But with that said I don't kid myself that I could sell it tomorrow for what I paid for it (despite the pricing today is about the same for a like 360--as mine).

    But for me I'm happy. I waited until the car I could be happy with came along. I cannot order one new the way I want and I clearly realized that. So when the car you can be really happy with comes along you don't dither. The price was OK, not a steal, but I have been enjoying my 360 now for two years as opposed to those who continue to wait it out for a pricing scenario that may never happen.
    ... and always remember in the meantime you could get hit by a bus :D
     
    paulchua, Apollo 11, knocker and 4 others like this.
  11. jcurry

    jcurry F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 16, 2012
    9,997
    Lk Stevens, WA
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Wasn't really referring to shady and corrupt people, rather mechanics who just did not quite do things properly. This can happen at any shop, although less likely at a dealership. Not that that justifies paying an exorbitant premium at a dealership.
     
    paulchua and Rosso_United_1999 like this.
  12. Only short term, and if the car doesn’t deserve to do anything but depreciate due to high numbers as you suggest, then potential resale value due to a dealer stamp is a silly thing to worry about. 10 years from now, one will care who did the work. Keep the receipts for the parts replaced, or even the old parts as well if it’s that much a concern, but I suspect the benefits are negligible once the repairs are beyond 3-4 years in the past. Obviously, they were done correctly or would have been redone in that timeframe.

    It sounds like you are frustrated because you want to buy low and sell high, in a short time frame. Easier said than done, and this is the wrong car for it.

    As for the R8, I loved them when they first came out. I don’t even give them a second look now. An RS7 is even more interesting to me as it at least has a practical element. The r8 just isn’t that exciting of a car to get in and drive.
     
    paulchua likes this.
  13. randkin

    randkin Formula 3

    Aug 2, 2015
    1,081
    Somis, CA
    Full Name:
    Randy
    The problem with that approach is then you don’t have service records to review from a “Ferrari expert” and the owner may have known how to maintain the car or maybe not. How does one evaluate the ability of the owner who does his own work? I would prefer to have a dealer serviced car at manufacture’s suggested intervals. :rolleyes:
     
    Rosso_United_1999 likes this.
  14. randkin

    randkin Formula 3

    Aug 2, 2015
    1,081
    Somis, CA
    Full Name:
    Randy
    I really like the 360s but for 55k I am not sure that a 996 Turbo is not a better “value” for the money and a 997 Turbo is even better. But it is not a FERRARI either and if you have your sights set on a 360 I can certainly understand that. :)
     
    paulchua and Rosso_United_1999 like this.
  15. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 25, 2005
    5,452
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    I always find the 'their way over priced' rant to be amusing. They ALWAYS point out the cars that haven't sold and say it proves it is worth a lot less. BUT, the fact that the seller's won't accept the offers is hard and fast proof that the market is higher. Buyers always think the market is 'what I will pay' but neglect the part of the market value definition that says 'what a willing seller will accept'. It takes two sides or the market isn't where YOU think it is.
     
    paulchua, Apollo 11, artsd and 3 others like this.
  16. #91 I'm 360 Canuck, Jun 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
    Years ago I had a (best) friend who worked at a dealership ( not Ferrari). He told me a story of an experienced mechanic ( not a pimply faced kid) who did an oil change on a car, drained the oil out, buttoned it all up, drove it out to the parking lot to wait for pickup. When he returned to his bay he saw the unopened quarts of oil sitting there and realized he may have drained the oil but did not refill it. He went back out, drove the car back in and then filled it with oil.
    You may have 100% confidence in premium priced dealership service, over and above a conscientious and knowledgeable owner who takes his time to research and take care of his car and has only 1 model to know intimately . But I don’t. So, there’s different kinds of buyers for different kinds of sellers. Do any of us really believe 360’s will be so collectible that buyers will be pouring over every single nut and bolt to ensure authenticity as they would a 250GTO? I think we need to come down to earth sometimes.
     
  17. kes7u

    kes7u Karting

    Oct 18, 2017
    237
    Shorewood, MN
    Full Name:
    Kevin
    I think this may be where you're missing the boat. Yes, 360 prices are sometimes all over the map. But the problem is trying to find a very well sorted example, which is what you want, at the lower end of the price range. Those typically don't exist. So while paying more doesn't guarantee anything, paying much less typically does mean a car that needs some care. This is what you are finding to be true as well. Again, I'm sure there are exceptions, but this is typically the game.

    Kevin
     
    ZA3879, paulchua, Apollo 11 and 3 others like this.
  18. randkin

    randkin Formula 3

    Aug 2, 2015
    1,081
    Somis, CA
    Full Name:
    Randy
    The other issue is normally an individual is buying “retail” and they think they want to pay wholesale. But the dealer wants retail as he already paid wholesale for the car. Then buying from a private party, often the owner doesn’t have to sell in any particular time frame and by the fact he is selling himself he is willing to put up with some hassle to get more than wholesale for his car. When one goes into the market with a “firm” price limit, he is going to see many “over priced” cars just because the price is more than his firm price budget.
    When I look for a particular car I generally have a price range in mind. The more boxes that the car checks the more I am willing to pay and I don’t really concern myself about cars being over priced as long as I can afford it and it is exactly what I want. I can’t believe I would be happy if I got a great deal on a car that checked very few boxes. The deal is not what makes me happy, it is driving the car that I really wanted. :D
     
    360trev, Skidkid and kes7u like this.
  19. randkin

    randkin Formula 3

    Aug 2, 2015
    1,081
    Somis, CA
    Full Name:
    Randy
    Oh I agree with you, did I say I had 100% confidence in dealerships it is just a general baseline. There are good mechanics and not so good mechanics at dealers and independent garages just like all professions - even doctors, dentists, lawyers etc. some are competent and others are not. It's just I don't always know how qualified the owner doing the maintenance/repairs is nor do I know to analyze their skill set when only seeing them a short time when looking to purchase the vehicle. Some you can have an idea about and others are all BS.
     
    Rosso_United_1999 likes this.
  20. knocker

    knocker F1 Veteran

    Jul 10, 2017
    5,198
    Sydney Aus
    Full Name:
    Adrian
    Buy a high mileage 360 that’s been used and has full history from new and remember an F1 can’t be over revved so the engines are good for big miles as to are the gearboxes if used regularly and serviced regularly, they are as reliable as any Porsche out there.
    It’s a machine and it has to be used, just as Enzo would have wanted



    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
    paulchua likes this.
  21. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    97
    Haha tried that! Diiiiiidn't go so well.. :D

    I wished it had worked like that, unfortunately it was totally the other way. And where are these high mileage 360s anyway? Call me overly suspicious, but a lot of them seem to be in this time warp between 20-40k miles....

     
  22. knocker

    knocker F1 Veteran

    Jul 10, 2017
    5,198
    Sydney Aus
    Full Name:
    Adrian
    Well mines doing fine at 109,000 klm but it’s not for sale ( like anyone would buy it


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
    paulchua and kes7u like this.
  23. knocker

    knocker F1 Veteran

    Jul 10, 2017
    5,198
    Sydney Aus
    Full Name:
    Adrian
    My 1st and imahorse like this.
  24. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    97
    Car not being sold for years... Yes, YEARS.. Is just easy empirical proof that totally destroys your point.

    No business longs for stock that doesn't move. No matter how much faith they have in Ferrari appreciation.

    Unfortunately, that's the sound of someone that has never run a successful and solvent business. That's the making of a business that crumbles under its own stubbornness and pride

    Again, I am not referring to 360s that ARE collector's pieces, are under 5k miles and to all intents have never really been driven

    I am talking about above average miler cars. Cars with very mixed specs. These aren't red cars. These are totally unlovable black 360s with 40,000 miles and they're £70-80,000. And they ain't frikkin selling.

     
  25. knocker

    knocker F1 Veteran

    Jul 10, 2017
    5,198
    Sydney Aus
    Full Name:
    Adrian
    #100 knocker, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
    Austalian delivery car with 89,000 klm and fsh from new and I paid the equivalent of £75,000 2 years ago (priceyand I’ve spent $10,000 on it to get it just so, new Pirelli system tyres, new F1 pump n motor,belts, fuel pumps various small stuff but she goes like a rocket and looks fine Image Unavailable, Please Login
    I wonder how many cars have been sat in the shed with 30,000 on the clock for years because they’re afraid of resale issues, it’s hilarious because they’re the cars that will have developed problems from not being used and the list is endless, I could leave a VW golf in a cocoon for 5 years and I’m pretty sure it’ll have a few issues

    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
    paulchua and Rosso_United_1999 like this.

Share This Page