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  1. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    #101 Rosso_United_1999, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
    .. Also.. Imagine the scenario where you pay more and because of the nature of the car or the nature of previous ownership, you STILL get majorly kicked in the balls? Who knows when an actuator will die and if your (apparent) only option is a £6,000 replacement? Just after you paid £75,000? That isn't going to feel nice. But.. That would probably be a richer man's game.

    And again, I am not talking about THAT game. I am talking about those at entry-level that want to play this game. It's advice for them.

    I think it's massively important to include those people with those budgets in this debate

     
  2. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    Related to this I wanted to add one appendum to my main post that I forgot to properly include:

    Does anyone really know these cars?

    I'll just use one example to sum this up. My car was throwing up a clutch position sensor - value too low fault code and a flashing F1 light..

    Not only was this problem never actually solved but this was the gamut of opinion on what to do via various specialist sources:

    - change clutch position sensor (didn't solve it, code came back)
    - change the magnet within the cps or potentially another magnet I am not too sure what that could be
    - change the cps without gearbox coming out
    - change the cps WITH gearbox coming out because it HAS to (+ £1000)
    - test electronics around the cps
    - change the F1 pump (done, didn't work)
    - change the accumulator
    - refurb the actuator
    - change some form of potentiometer (can't remember the exact detail on this)
    - take gearbox out and inspect all elements within bell housing
    - bleed F1 system and inspect solenoid valves
    - change the TCU (which had already been changed once)

    I am probably missing some stuff out here but literally I had every kind of opinion with hardly any kind of consensus. Every specialist had their own methods, every specialist had their own solutions and I was offered the absolute range of cost options to try and solve it.

    While I did come out of this trusting some more than others, I really wanted to trust EACH person I spoke to because they were all experienced, and all knowledgeable in their own right. This is not an indictment of anyone. More it is just an illustration on how things can snowball, things are barely diagnosed let alone solved, and it leaves you in this world of wondering if ANYONE has a bloody clue what they are doing. Really, truthfully.



     
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  3. knocker

    knocker F1 Veteran

    Jul 10, 2017
    5,418
    Sydney Aus
    Full Name:
    Adrian
    This is probably a daft question because I’ve not read all thread replies but what’s your car doing :ie does it run change gear ect ?


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  4. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    Thanks for reaching out. That particular car has gone back so no longer dealing with the problem

    Basic issue was, car gets decently warm / up to temp, you would come to some lights or a junction, then flashing F1 and it would pop in neutral and stay there

    It may pop out but then it might stick in 1st or it may give you gears again

    But if you stopped again it would cycle again. No gears, large trucks up your arse as you're frantically trying to move your bright red Ferrari. Not the best of looks!




     
  5. knocker

    knocker F1 Veteran

    Jul 10, 2017
    5,418
    Sydney Aus
    Full Name:
    Adrian
    That just sucks It happened to me once when the F1 pump motor was on its death wine, motorists in NSW are less than polite on the best of days
    We hope your next/current car is much more enjoyable to own


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  6. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
    Project Master

    Oct 29, 2005
    3,433
    isle Of Man
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    360trev
    #106 360trev, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
    You need to learn more about DIY, especially the art of electrical sensor fault finding yourself (to prevent unnecessary swapping out of good parts) if you want to run a 360 on an incredibly tight budget which clearly is your intended approach. Nothing wrong with trying to save money as long as its done with intelligence and you use your own knowledge, time and experience to put right faults and your not tempted to skimp. It will just bite further along the road. You can test sensors yourself for example without removing them from the car if you know their ranges. Not all tech's do this, its typically easier for them to use the fault code as a justification to replace and then if it doesn't resolve the issue look into the problem further. You can save yourself money if you know how to test sensors and what exactly the error codes mean and how they work. For example the cat ecu's generate a voltage between 0v and 5v and I've documented what they should be outputting at given temperatures.

    Fault codes and issues are basically categorised into the following way ;
    1. Maximum threshold too high
    2. Minimum threshold too low
    3. Non plausible signal
    5. No signal


    This follows along the line of the way fault codes are categorised. For example here is a snippet from the Error Code table burned into the Ignition ECU's on a 1999 360 Modena...

    Key:
    Min: C.A./C.C. to VBatt or sensor minimum value reached.
    Max: C.C. to Ground or sensor maximum value reached.
    Sig: Value not plausible
    Npl: No Signal (e.g. unplugged or faulty wiring)

    -----[ LH Bank 1 ]----- -----[ RH Bank 2 ]-----
    min max sig npl min max sig npl
    P1106 P1104 P1100 P1101 P0103 P0102 P0100 P0101 LM : Hot-Film Air Flow Meter
    P0158 P0157 P0160 P0156 P0138 P0137 P0140 P0136 LSH : Lambda Probe After Catalyzer
    P0152 P0151 P0154 P0150 P0132 P0131 P0134 P0130 LSV : Lambda Probe Before Catalyzer
    ... cut ....


    On the left is the Left Hand (LH) bank error codes, on the right is the Right Hand (RH) bank error codes. And further to this you can see they are split into min, max, signal and non plausible.

    If the sensor is the culprit (which was replaced and it doesn't solve the issue of value too low then its either you've got a power issue (wiring) or a earth issue (again wiring) and typically this comes from corrosion of the wiring point of the earth. Personally I would use a multimeter to check wiring before replacing sensors. Check earthing points and electrical connections that the sensor passes through for example.

    I'm guessing all the hassle you had was probably just a badly corroded earthing point, at least the sensor fault anyway!
     
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  7. J360M

    J360M Rookie

    Nov 29, 2018
    41
    To me you are going about this the right way. You aren’t willing to over pay, you know that the right car can be had for the right price. It is 100% possible to find a well sorted Ferrari at the bottom of the price range and you can find a not so good one at the top. It’s about research and due diligence and speaking to the right people (I know you are speaking to the right people). You are being patient and not jumping the gun. On TLC though, I’m not sure I agree. Get a good baseline car, keep the high quality preventative services going by someone like AV and it won’t need TLC.... drive it hard, drive it regularly, don’t jump start it and leave it on a battery tender. Could you be unlucky? Yes.... **** sometimes happens, but you will have taken the right steps to minimise exposure as best as possible.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  8. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 20, 2017
    789
    Melbourne Florida
    Full Name:
    KGC
    Good advise. I learned everything I could about the 360 before I even started with the "for sale" ads.
    And yes you can be unlucky in the one you finally get. But that can happen with any car, and for me it has. It's only that the 360 will be much more expensive to repair and much tougher finding a good, knowledgeable mechanic to work on such a, let's face it by productions numbers, rare car. And that's why it can often leave a bad taste in your mouth.

    I actually researched what the costs would be if I had some of the failures that were common with the 360 and kind of set aside a chunk of cash for that. And I'll admit it was a bit daunting to consider the "what ifs". But in the end you are either in the game or not. Some folks first marriage is a disaster. But then sometimes the second or third is better than what you could have hoped for.

    All in all, life's a crap shoot. Do your homework, head off the issues you can avoid, and simply accept the ones you didn't see coming. If you bought the car you really wanted, it won't seem so bad.
     
  9. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    I think it's crazy to assume or expect people will look at a 360 engine bay, rub their hands together and go, "Let's see what we have here then...."

    Sure, a tiny percentage have the requisite skills. Good for them. The rest will only **** their car up more. And then probably attempt to pass it on.

     
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  10. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    May 25, 2019
    287
    Memphis, TN
    Full Name:
    John
    >> I think it's crazy to assume or expect people will look at a 360 engine bay, rub their hands together and go, "Let's see what we have here then...."

    From my research, it seems that the problems with the car are more superficial and have to do with electronics and minor hardware (like locks) rather than the hard bits like the engine and transmission. A decent DIY'er could change the belts, do the major service, troubleshoot and repair electronics and deal with stickies and interior blemishes themselves.

    My condolences for your issues with the F1. I'll bet 360tech is right in blaming a ground connection. In my experience with old cars (I have a LOT), 99% of electrical problems could be traced to a corroded ground. It might be prudent to reset every grounding point on a newly acquired car.
     
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  11. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
    Project Master

    Oct 29, 2005
    3,433
    isle Of Man
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    360trev
    That's quite a cynical view and on the whole not true. I've helped hundreds of owners over the years to fix their cars.

    The more you get to know the 360 the more you'll understand its actually quite simple (particularly by modern car standards) and most jobs don't require special service tools either. You do need a good code reader though. SD2 was Ferrari's own system but it was for garages only and horrendously expensive, I have been developing an end user product called Swiss Army Knife which just plugs into the obd port and allows DIYers to do and see a lot more than what the even factory diagnostic tool can do.

    You would be surprised how much you can do yourself. I am not talking about engine rebuilds or things like that but suggest you read up about fixing DIY. There are a lot of the common electrical failures is entirely within the relm of DIY but they are just time consuming. Actually it just takes basic tools and skills with a multimeter, a cheap obd dongle and a copy of the workshop manuals to fix. In fact a large majority of the faults aren't really even Ferrari faults at all, its all the cheap Bosch sensors and actuators going bad due to built in time obsolescence.
     
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  12. billy.gif

    billy.gif Karting

    Mar 9, 2017
    227
    Finland
    #112 billy.gif, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
    There's many valid points on the 1st post. I personally doubt too that these (or 430's etc) will go up in value. In general the car industry / whole world is changing in so fast phase towards environment this and that -crap and 90% of the "millenials" or more young aren't really into the whole "car concept" like guys from 1980s or early 1990s. So why would "normal", 2 decades old sportscars go up in value as ppls in general doesn't like cars, at least combustion engined. The elextricity and "self driving cars" are the future which excites normal, everyday ppls.

    Special variants and really pristine ones will go up / keep their values much longer than average Joe's 360 / or 430 / or 911 / or Gallardo / or whatever exotic with average miles, average service history and average options. Ferrari is producing newer mid engine V8 models every 7-8 years. Where will all those go if 360's will hold at (for example) $70k and 430's will hold at $90k range and 458's at $130k+ range. Not gonna happen and like I said, special variants like CS or Scuds are totally different story. Anyway I personally predict that in general there' big "bubble" in the car collection / special car industry.


    I bought my higher mileage (82 000km / 51 000 miles) 360 Modena F1 after much newer 911 felt too mundane, experience shared with so many others here. I paid over 92k Euros ($104 000+ or £82 000+) for it due my home country's stupid pollution related car taxes, but I never had that delusion that it would keep its value let alone go up. So I've used it lot, and I mean a lot. Almost 12k miles (18 000 km) in just over two summers (as winters here is no-go for any car without studded tires).

    The car hold up surprisingly well. Clutch went 3 days after I bought it and after that a randomly visiting CEL was cured by changing all the spark plugs (DIY). Thats it. 3 x oil changes, once all fluids aka "large service". All was fine until this spring when the F1-system / gearbox started acting weird, going N in a specific occasions. Actuator rebuilt (£2500 in all) - did not help at all. New F1-pump, £300 - did not help at all. Plus all the work that my trusted mechanic has done via diagnosing this, at least another £1000.

    That's all I've put into the car. Its no queen, it has some stories to tell, but its no garage queen either. It has given me much, and I mean much "smiles per miles", memories etc. It hasn't be a "money pit" before this spring. As I'm personally your "average working Joe sitting 9-5 in a cubicle" I'm now thinking how much more I want to put in the diagnosing as it can be one sensor (£600-800) or it can be something totally different. I don't want to put my savings into a car, nor want I "bargain" from my everyday living. So the car may end up sitting to my garage for unseeing future.

    Some say I got a far too expensive car, I say that It's given me so very much as it was a life long dream of mine. Would I change anything - nope, most definitely not.
     
  13. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 25, 2005
    5,620
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    WOW, pretty big quantum leap about what I know and don't know. A little condescending and a monumental display of your ignorance about me. I think you really need to look up the definition of market value and think about how a market works. Just because there are examples that sit a long time doesn't mean that they represent the market. There are a lot of cars that get sold and fairly quickly, but you choose to ignore them because they aren't as obvious and they don't support your position.

    We are at an inflection point for the 360. The good cars are flat to rising in value while poorly maintained cars are continuing to fall in price. That makes the market a bit chaotic right now but just like the 3x8 markets it will settle out. The car is 20 years old so maintenance is to be expected. Looking out a little further the cost of parts will make the poorly maintained examples very low priced because the cost to repair essentially makes them parts cars.

    The trap that most fall into is thinking that they should be getting one of the great examples for deferred maintenance prices. They justify it to themselves that 'they buyers set the market' but they wait, wait, wait, and never buy. They look at cars and complain that they have deferred maintenance and aren't perfect so they pass and wait some more. THAT is because it takes two to make a deal, not just a buyer.
     
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  14. knocker

    knocker F1 Veteran

    Jul 10, 2017
    5,418
    Sydney Aus
    Full Name:
    Adrian
    When can we buy this Swiss Army knife ? Please pm me when it’s good to go
    Regards Adrian


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  15. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 13, 2009
    12,890
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Curt
    Waaaaa waaaa waaaaa…. another "Why isn't the world the way I want it to be...?"
    The world isn't fair. The world isn't kind. It just is. The rest of us deal with it, buy the car, fix it and drive it.

    If you can't afford to buy a new Ferrari, you can't afford it used. Mine has 66k MILES/106k Kilometers. 3-Pedal stick. Drive it every weekend and don't have any issues. My 997 in the driveway equally as reliable but not a 360 in any way.

    *Prediction*: I look forward to reading about how much the 360 is such a piece of junk and is sooooo unreliable. So far it's been a lot of whiney nonsense from someone who has a lot to say but no substance...
     
  16. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    I can afford one. I actually bought one. It was cheaper due to high mileage, not due to the understanding that is also must be a pile of junk. Which it was. I nearly bought another one! Can you believe it!!?

    I think people need lessons again in comprehension. Yknow the ones you did at school? When you were 10?

    This post isn't a whine. It's main aim is to help first time ferrari buyers at the bottom of the market. Again.. Comprehension skills needed.

     
  17. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    Again I think people just hide behind this tosh that if it isn't £80,000 it must be trash?

    Higher mileage cars, at the bottom of the market, being sold by traders, shouldn't also be essentially unroadworthy - if that if the honest expectation we have of Ferraris then this will all just continue

    If the expectation is that we have to pay 70-80% of the original price for 20 year old cars that currently number in their 100s in terms of UK availability - as in there are more 360s for sale on eBay than something like the Honda S2000 (not the best comparison but it gives people an idea) then I think there's something extremely warped about the market

    And look, if you wanna buy what the market tells you, you for got it. Buy that £70,000 360 that's been waiting for its "right buyer" for 3 years. After all, its summertime when the livin is easy.. etc etc

    It's just a little maddening when you ARE trying to work out a deal with a trader but ultimately it breaks down because of their reliance on this (in my eyes) false market.

    And look, maybe they will sell their (overpriced) car with 67% clutch and a less desirable spec, and a car that's had a full colour change, and has suspension liabilities.. Maybe they will find their lucky punter. It just wasn't me. Frustrating all round.

    And accepting exploitative maintenance costs just because you have to? No one here is naive to think these cars (or any car) are / is free to own and keep on the road. But I think it's definitely worthwhile working out who the honest garages are and championing them.




     
  18. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    And the "world just is," if you choose to accept it is..

    I happen to think simply accepting things in life is essentially how you die. And I ain't dead yet. :p

     
  19. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    Jan 16, 2012
    10,569
    Lk Stevens, WA
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    Jim
    Can you point me to the post where you describe the 360 you previously bought. Sorry, I must have missed it, and the OP did made it sound like you were looking for your first car (and I'm too lazy to read through 5 pgs again;)). What did you pay, what was the mileage, what was the overall service history, what did the ppi tell you and what did it not tell you. Thanks.
     
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  20. imahorse

    imahorse Karting

    Nov 25, 2017
    195
    WI
    Full Name:
    Dustin
    You can hate the market all you want, you can hate the maintenance all you want, you can hate the unreliability all you want, but there are still enough people ok with it to have a market. That is why the market is the way it is. Hell, I know of extremely wealthy people that can afford exotics I can only dream of that just buy Corvettes so they don't have to put up with all of the migraines of owning an exotic. If you don't want to deal with it, don't buy one. Anybody that wants one will most likely do their homework beforehand and know about all of this before they dive into it. If you think it's tough trying to buy a used Ferrari, the issues people have trying to get a Pista allocation would horrify you. I don't know what you want us to tell you here....
     
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  21. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Oct 29, 2005
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    Any older supercar that's low volume and is going to hold residuals better than some people's pre-concieved notions of 'value'. It also seems that some people have no idea of the concept of adjusting values for inflation. I just had to post this so you can see how much a 360 has actually devalued since new..

    So the original purchase price for a F1 Modena was around 112k GBP + options so most probably that would have been around 120k GBP average cost price back in 2004. If you calculation inflation in from 2004 to 2019, the new optioned price of 120k GBP in 2004 is the equivalent of 186.5k GBP today, so if your buying for 50k now, that is the equivalent of back in 2004 of just 32k GBP which is basically just 26% of the new price. Even paying 60k now is only equivalent of 38.6k GBP (or a mere 32% of the original new price adjusted for inflation - nearly 70% off!). So is paying 60K really such a rip of now when you adjust for inflation?

    Also there is no such thing as a cheap Ferrari, if its cheap its for a multitude of costly reason. The words 'Cheap Luxury Good' doesn't usually go together either. If you want a good experience of the brand you need to pay at least 20% above the bottom feeder cars to stand a chance of getting lucky with a good example and even then you need to keep a good attitude about maintenance budget. Your buying the car for a fraction of the list price, the parts prices are still very high if you have to source them new.
     

    Attached Files:

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  22. basscase415

    basscase415 Karting

    Jun 10, 2017
    50
    I'd just like to leave OP with these ancient words of wisdom:

    More than you can afford, pal
    Ferrari
     
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  23. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    Well, obviously!? It's a Ferrari!?? (pal)

     
  24. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
    Project Master

    Oct 29, 2005
    3,433
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    360trev
    More scenario's for inflation adjusted new price

    1% of original list price £120k = £1,200. Adjusted for inflation is £ 186,520.08.

    Therefore...
    Scenario #1: Today £50k adjusted for inflation since 2004 is £32.1k equivalent... so £32,168.12 / £1,200 is ... 26.8% of new price
    Scenario #2: Today £60k adjusted for inflation since 2004 is £38.6k equivalent... so £38,601.74 / £1,200 is ... 32.1% of new price
    Scenario #3: Today £70k adjusted for inflation since 2004 is £45.0k equivalent... so £45,035.37 / £1,200 is ... 37.5% of new price
    Scenario #4: Today £80k adjusted for inflation since 2004 is £51.4k equivalent... so £51,468.99 / £1,200 is ... 42.9% of new price
    Scenario #5: Today £90k adjusted for inflation since 2004 is £57.9k equivalent... so £57,902.61 / £1,200 is ... 48.2% of new price
    Scenario #6: Today £100k adjusted for inflation since 2004 is £64.3k equivalent. so £ 64,336.24 / £1,200 is ... 53.6% of new price
    Scenario #7: Today £120k adjusted for inflation since 2004 is £77.2k equivalent. so £ 77,203.48 / £1,200 is ... 64.3% of new price
    Scenario #8: Today £186k adjusted for inflation since 2004 is £119,6k equivalent. so £ 119,665.40 / £1,200 is 99.7% of new price

    So even paying £90k today (Scenario #5) is still less than half the actual list price when you factor in the value of money with inflation correction calculations, as shown above.

    This is why people who do maths don't buy supercars, they buy property!
     
  25. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    112
    So apply the same theory to old 2005 era 911s and R8s and V8 Vantages etc etc etc and I think you'll find you're pretty much making my point for me...

    Even Gallardos make more sense, price-wise. And there's less of them. They're newer. And they're built by Germans.

    Clearly it's a great time to sell as so many are out there!


     

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