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  1. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Jul 1, 2013
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    Paul Chua
    Wow, that is spine tingling and the stuff of dreams. Thank you for sharing, very cool.

    ....and to the OP, let's start again on the right foot. No more flames from me going forward as long as you don't call any more of our members "Brainless" and "Lacking reading comprehension"

    I'm sorry about your poor experience. I can assure you, not all Ferrari are endless nightmares, and definitely not all 360s
     
  2. mello

    mello F1 Rookie
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    Jul 12, 2013
    2,893
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    Steve
    We all know that the cheapest Ferrari is the most expensive to own. Best of luck to the OP in looking for his 360 Unicorn.
     
    vinny84, Graz, KC360 FL and 3 others like this.
  3. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 Rookie
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    Jul 8, 2016
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    Good Lord, if I didn't have a Keystone in my coozie I would have thought the last 20 minutes reading through this thread was a complete waste of time.
    I feel sorry for Trev after reading this post, all that time and knowledge wasted on someone who is probably still trying to phonetically pronounce "Diy". I find it hilarious the anti-DIY'ers that will spend $20k at a shop to avoid the $10k value hit when/if they go to sell the car in a few years. These cars still look so beautiful and modern, that people are fooled into thinking that they aren't 20 year old cars,and then expect them to assimilate into their mindset..you buy a project or you PAY for a cream puff, it's not that hard of a concept. I also find it hilarious that some will knock the manuals as inflated because they are bringing in $20k more than the F1's, then put $20k into their F1, then complain that the values aren't holding up as well as their gated counterparts. (No offense to the F1 guys) We all hope to break even or better when/if we sell but still need to get over the fact that these cars are NOT investments, and we are doing ourselves a huge disservice, and robbing ourselves of fun if we buy with that mindset.

    This particular fella was unfortunately taken for a ride by a seller and overpaid for a lemon after he neglected to do the proper research and due diligence before purchasing and now wants to trash every other car as overpriced because of it. If everyone was cut out to own a Ferrari then we wouldn't be having this conversation because they would have made enough, and the 360's would be a $5k bargain right next to the Porsche Boxsters.
     
    randkin, KC360 FL, Graz and 7 others like this.
  4. Tarek307

    Tarek307 Formula Junior
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    Sep 26, 2018
    291
    Long Beach, CA & Alexandria,Egypt.
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    Tarek Salah
    it sounds like you bought a piece of garbage, i have a 2004 Modena Manual and its one of the most reliable cars i've ever owned, i drive it daily here in Los Angeles, yes daily, and no issues in past 8,000 miles.
     
  5. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    107
    Update:

    I just wanted to touch base again as the story of acquiring a 360 on a (relative) budget has developed somewhat.

    The tone of the thread went south so I checked out, honestly. People were simply missing the various points I was attempting to make. People in 2019 can't take any dose of reality, criticism, or perspective. People are utterly resistant to ideas outside of their own worldview. I get it, we all love our precious bits of metal in the garage, but really, I am simply trying to help people here by offering an opinion. I will not apologise if my experiences trouble the pride of some Ferrari owners that this thread won't ever apply to.

    Anyway, moving on...

    So I managed to find what I felt to be was the best budget 360 I could find. And again, I am not going to tell you which car it was or where I acquired it from. Not the point of this thread.

    The car came with following:

    - a meticulous service history, with the car being regularly and routinely serviced at either respected specialists or main dealers
    - meticulously kept paperwork going back at least 10 years, with recent years in particular highly detailed
    - 40,000 miles (with no mileage discrepancies and an interior that looked and felt more like 20,000)
    -outstanding superficial condition (brakes, pads, tyres, paint, engine bay, interior functionality etc etc) a very clean car
    - I had the car PPId by a specialist and aside from some extremely minor issues (usual stuff like door locks, slight play in a ball joint), the car passed with flying colours

    For reasons I feel I have attempted to explain here.. The car had been sat collecting dust at this dealership for TWO YEARS. There had been basically ZERO interest in this car until I came along. It was originally priced at £59,000

    Some may suggest this is / was a well-priced car, based on condition. However, as people know, I would tend to disagree. And empirically, the fact that it hadn't sold or courted any interest whatsoever, the fact that this car was going nowhere fast, would suggest I may have been on to something...

    In any case, after some discussions, and largely based on the fact that the clutch (according to the PPI / SD2) was nearing its end, I managed to secure this car at £50,000 - an overall value I feel is commensurate.

    Granted.. in the current market of £60,000, £65,000 and £70,000+ 360s (that strangely never sell...), this would seem like some kind of steal!? I simply feel this is what these cars are currently worth, regardless of badge..

    My car broke down after 3 days.


    It will currently be off the road for at least the next 2 weeks. Bye bye, August. In fact, bye bye the entire summer of 2019. The Ferrari 360 has given me around about 3 weeks of motoring fun in total this summer. 3 weeks. And I bought the first car in March.

    So, what did I so so horrifically wrong, I hear you all cry, like vultures waiting to leap on the carcass of my dead 360..

    As part of the deal, the vendor wished to do a major cambelt service. Part courtesy and part necessity. The car had been sat for 2 years or more and the last cambelts was around 3 years ago. They have an in-house "Ferrari-trained" mechanic and they were confident he would be able to do the work. Fine. If someone is capable, they are capable. Shoot, there's even guys on YouTube giving tutorials on major cambelt servicing () so how much like rocket science can it be..?

    Reason the car broke down? Cam timing way off. Car went into "throttle safety mode."

    Now I am not here to blame anyone. I can't be bothered with mindlessly blaming people. I don't have the energy. **** happens. Maybe there is something more serious at play here than a bad cambelt job (hope to god, there isn't)

    However... EVEN AFTER doing everything right.. Finding a beautiful example, PPIing it, servicing it etc etc THESE CARS CAN CATCH YOU OUT.

    So what does this latest episode empirically show?


    - cars aren't selling at their current inflated prices but WILL sell when the price is right

    - these cars are quite complex beasts and can catch you out / can fail fairly easily and fairly quickly

    - I am waiting 2 weeks to get mine repaired - again every specialist local to me is extremely busy. it is a major struggle not only keeping these cars on the road but actually finding anyone to work on them

    - these cars are closer to race cars than you think and ideally each one needs experienced specialist eyes on it on a regular basis


    So 2 cars and many multiple problems. One car, admittedly was a sight ropier than the other. But regardless, my experience hasn't really changed that much, has it? It's rinse and repeat for me..

    So there we are. I shall report back when hopefully, one day in the non too distant future, I can actually enjoy my Ferrari.
     
  6. Graz

    Graz Formula 3
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    Oct 15, 2012
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    Thomas
    I think the title of your thread “Buying a Ferrari 360 on a BUDGET” is where all your problems began. You don’t buy these cars looking for a “great deal.” In this world the old adage “You get what you pay for” rings true every time. There’s no shortcuts. If you buy these cars with a clean service history from a reputable source you’re going to have to pay up for them. Period. Prices are not ”inflated “ as you imply. The right cars just cost more. Sorry about your experience but at the same time not surprised.
     
    imahorse likes this.
  7. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    107
    Totally disagree. It is utterly mindless to suggest an expensive Ferrari 360 just won't give you any problems ever coz my dad is richer than yours etc

     
    hessank likes this.
  8. hessank

    hessank Formula 3
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    Aug 8, 2005
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    Fred
    +1
    I totally disagree also with Thomas's comment.
    I bought a car with no history of any kind, no invoices, no PPI, 4 owners etc.
    I've been around cars my whole life and did my own evaluation. The body looked ok, it started up with the first turn of the key, owner gave me the keys to take it for a drive (alone) for as long as I wanted (time/distance). It stopped great, no rattles or vibrations, over heating or engine alarms etc.

    Over the years I did a major and other preventative maintenance. It's a keeper.
    Yes, maybe I was 'lucky' but there are lots of others who have had similar experiences like me.
    My car is very reliable.
     
    Rosso_United_1999 likes this.
  9. Graz

    Graz Formula 3
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    I'm sorry you missed my point. I'm not saying that just because you spend a lot of money on a car you're not going to have a problem. What I am saying is as a GENERAL rule you get what you pay for. The dad reference is juvenile. We can agree to disagree. Good luck with your future endeavors.
     
    kes7u likes this.
  10. Graz

    Graz Formula 3
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    Agree. The OP had an unfortunate experience. I'm on my 3rd 360 and they have been the most reliable cars I've owned.
     
    paulchua likes this.
  11. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Dec 13, 2009
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    Charleston, SC
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    Curt
    There is absolutely nothing new to this thread that should have been titled:

    WHINING AFTER SHOPPING ON THE CHEAP FOR A FERRARI AND THE PREDICTABLE RESULT

    I've owned my 1999 for going on 9 years and the cars are as reliable as a Porsche. For those reading this thread, what you don't do is treat it like buying a VW Golf, as the OP has done. What you do is first find out who you will bring your car to. You find a reputable mechanic that can fix it based on other Ferrari owners. You DO NOT just let the shop you bought it from who has a "Ferrari Trained Technician" just jump on the car and work on it. For those reading in the future, you have to be very discerning. What happens with incompetent technicians don't tension the belt properly, allow the timing in the process to move, or use an old tensioner and not replace it. And the predictable happens, the timing is off and at worst valves get bent. Good news is if they own the repair gone bad it gets fixed on their dime..
     
    randkin, paulchua and KC360 FL like this.
  12. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula Junior
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    Jun 20, 2017
    757
    Melbourne Florida
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    KGC
    I've been around cars all my life. I make my living from restoring and modifying them. I have a few nice cars in my garage.
    First off, I think the point to be made is one can be somewhat "blind to", "tolerant of", or simply overlook some issues when buying a car that one is trying to score at the price they want to spend.

    Secondly, a PPI is not always the end all, be all, that will give the confidence that some want. I looked at a gated 360 that I paid a fair amount to have a PPI done. When I saw the car in person ( ordered the PPI before I traveled to look at the car) it was a rat. Poorly kept and cosmetically awful. I walked on the car. Sure the PPI was "everything is fine" kind of report but the way that car looked, I could not in my mind think the PO had any respect for it-- which reflects on how well it probably was taken care of. Temporary fixes, cheap solutions, and things done just to get the car sold are all things that circle my mind when considering the owner and condition, sometimes more than the paperwork.

    It does seem like the OP has had some bad luck here. But to be sure, there are plenty, and I mean plenty of folks here who have had one of the most reliable Ferraris ever made and only a very few with some real horror stories. But as mentioned, that can be said for a cross section of all exotic (and most non exotic) marques.

    Most guys love their 458s. Probably as close to a maintenance free Ferrari you will ever own. But I can tell you which 458 owners don't love their cars; the ones who have had transmission failures.
    Point is it happens. But to think the 458 market is going to take a hit over this, well I sorely doubt it.

    IMHO, I believe the 360 will be a somewhat desirable car in the coming years. It's a beautiful design, the first truly reliable Ferrari made, and the last to be free of the complex intricate electronic tech that now has infiltrated the newer 458s and on.

    I've always paid a fair price for a car. I never saw one that was a steal that did not have issues, seen OR hidden from sight. But I think the OP needs to open his eyes to all facets of the Ferrari purchase and subsequent ownership. If one is going to own the car for a good while, then just fix it. Drive it and enjoy it. Sort out the small problems, pay QUALIFIED folks to fix them.
     
    vinny84, randkin, paulchua and 4 others like this.
  13. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Oct 29, 2005
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    Its a interesting dilemma this but here is where I see why it gets frustrating, expensive and does not meet expectations for the original OP. He didn't understand you can only pick 2..

    The prospect of buying one of the lowest priced Ferrari's reminds me of this adaptation of the Cheap, Good and Fast. Very funny but also a good lesson in not expecting to have your cake and eat it...

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. Jaguar36

    Jaguar36 Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2010
    312
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    The real issue here seems to be that you believe the market value for a sorted 360 is 50k, when its not. Buy a car that has sat for two years and its going to have issues, be it a Toyota or a Ferrari. In your first post you talk about how important it is to have a mechanic that you trust work on the car, and then you did the exact opposite.

    Something else to keep in mind is that a Ferrari sitting at in a dealer's showroom provides value to that dealer by increase their prestige, driving foot traffic and the like. Therefore they are not going to be as interested in selling it as you may like.
     
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  15. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Jul 1, 2013
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    Paul Chua
    What these cars are worth is based on what a person out there is willing to pay for them in your area today, period.

    You can argue the price will go down, up, or flat. Truth is we don't know. Your guess is as good as mine, but keep in mind it is just that; a guess.

    *

    My problem with your posts is they keep denigrating the 360 when you yourself admit you had incompetent work done.

    If I had my timing belt done wrong on my Toyota Sienna, it will break.

    I won't go on a Toyota forum and proclaim all Sienna's are bad or need extraordinary care vs other Toyotas; I just say I had a bad mechanic.
     
    360trev likes this.
  16. imahorse

    imahorse Karting

    Nov 25, 2017
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    WI
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    Dustin
    I bought the cheapest clean titled 360 in the USA by a large margin. It had a ridiculous amount of things wrong with it. I knew this going in and I expected it. Had someone with no mechanical ability bought it, they would be in for quite the sum of money. That's how this works. Do you really believe a good condition, well sorted out car, that is very low priced is going to sit on the dealership lot for 2 years?
     
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  17. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Oct 29, 2005
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    Anyone who knows these cars inside and out (you all know whom you are) actually really likes working on them and respects the engineering that went into them.
    There is a huge amount of technical information available for the 360s, you can find the workshop manuals, wiring diagrams, proprietary CEL codes the lot. That's half the battle of fixing a car, getting the right information and doing a job properly.

    Almost anything that could go wrong has already been fixed. Typically its all been documented on here too. Spares are readily available for the most part and with development of tools like SAK we are getting to side step some of the more common issues and save money with the community helping each other out. Very few well described problems go unfixed.

    Its actually one of the reasons why I love my 360. I have confidence that whatever it throws at me its all been seen before. The problems tend to be when people come to the car expecting it to be like a Golf. Its not, its a supercar that cost 6 figures when new.
    Exactly! If you want to buy the cheapest consider it a project and be prepared to do a lot of homework and have an understanding partner or wife. You'll be spending a lot of time wrenching.

    Put in 10%+ of the purchase price in and get help from friends to bring it back up... It can actually be quite enjoyable and a journey in itself but don't kid yourself that you found the unicorn of a car which was cheap, perfect quality and reliable.
     
  18. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Agreed, which is why I'm confused. The OP said himself the guy that did the timing belt messed up. So is that the fault of the 360?
     
  19. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula Junior
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    Jun 20, 2017
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    KGC
    ... and somehow has sat for sale and undiscovered by anyone but yourself for over a year or two.;)
     
  20. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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  21. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    107
    No one even looked at the car.. Because at the money.. Presumably there was very little interest in it

    The car is really an immaculate example

    Again, not trying to sound like Gandalf here, but surely there's good reason why the demand (or even remote interest) wasn't there until I turned up?

    And also good reason why they dropped their price?

    I have a feeling the US (if that is where you are based) and UK markets may be quite different

     
  22. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    107
    I understand your point.

    All I am saying, is that this job appears to be more a specialist-only job and if someone buying a lower end car expects any old garage to be able to set the timing (or any garage without SD2), then it is likely they will face problems

    Remember, there was great confidence that the job would be done right. And I didn't wish to take it for granted that this confidence was misplaced

    Again, this is meant for others buying their first 360 that even basic servicing requires a certain degree of either experience or technical guidance

    So if a first time 360 owner expects a smaller garage to do the cambelts or they intend to do it DIY they may encounter problems

     
  23. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    107
    Again, my points are being taken too personally

    Why would I denigrate a car I actually love and have bought twice?

    I am relaying my experiences for first time buyers. It may sound critical. Its intention is to be cautionary


     
  24. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    107
    Basic points:

    Pay more and you automatically get more: myth. Shop around, do your homework and due diligence and relative bargains can be had.

    The Ferrari 360 should be worth more, because it's a Ferrari: myth. Why is a manual example, being sold by a reputable seller, even after a £5k drop in price and now on sale for under £60k still not selling? I've tracked this particular car (and many others) now for over a year. If a showroom wants a sale you should always attempt to work them down and pay what you feel these cars are actually worth.

    The Ferrari 360 is the "reliable Ferrari:" myth. No matter what anyone thinks, they are all 15+ years old at this point, and while they are not impossible to maintain, they can present you with a plethora of different problems and require genuinely experienced eyes on them at regular intervals

    Currently my car is being shipped from one local specialist who is massively busy to another that is fractionally less busy. None of this is ever that quick, unfortunately. So depending where you are based, getting help can be problematic, too.

    Hope my experiences help someone!
     
  25. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Dec 13, 2009
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    Misconceptions:

    A Ferrari is basically a car and the rules that all other cars abide by should apply to a 360 as well: False. While a Ferrari DOES have an engine, tires and parts that make it a "Car", from the second it was created Ferrari intentionally crafted the experience with their cars to be an "exclusive" experience. For example, unlike cars that manufacturers want to be purchased en-mass by as many as possible, when you want to buy a new Ferrari the dealership will often tell you "no". Parts prices are high so that that exclusivity is maintained. In fact a big flaw that owners ignorant of this dynamic make is assuming that normal rules apply to ownership. They don't, thus the term "exotic".

    The Ferrari 360 is Reliable: This is actually true. Many owners elect to buy the cheapest car they can find. Things are cheap for a reason, be it a BMW, Porsche or Toyota. Ferrari's like to be driven like most sports cars. When they sit, problems accrue. So when the problems from an unsorted car manifest, the hapless buyer then assumes incorrectly that they are "unreliable". In fact, most owners find them to be reliable and often think that people with such bad experiences should probably be driving other marques like Porsche.

    Buying a 360 or Ferrari is like buying a used VW or Vauxhall: This is patently false. When you have a low production car with a hand-built engine that is more like a racing engine than a commuter engine, the construction is different and the components are higher stressed. This means that the car will have much higher performance than a car from the same year but owners will need to be more attentive to the car. Just like owning that thoroughbred stallion that runs so much faster on the track and is so much more beautiful than the other glue horses, someone will invariably post on the internet a complaint why the stallion doesn't cost the same as a glue horse. Because it's a stallion.

    Car dealerships should obey rules of business: False. If it doesn't sell, they should lower their price to what I want to pay right? Not so true. Nobody has to sell you anything for the price you think they should accept. If this were true, we'd ALL be driving a new Ferrari F8 for $25,000 USD. If a dealer doesn't want to sell you a car for what you think they should sell it for even though it hasn't sold in a year or three... they don't have to. The law of retailing is a retailer doesn't have to accept your price, and you don't have to accept theirs. They have their reasons for the price and you shouldn't care what it is, you just won't pay it. The market is what the market is.

    Hope these clarifications helps future buyers recognize when they're reading whining on the internet versus reality.
     

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