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  1. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    108
    But the retailer refusing to make deals will ultimately lead to Ferraris sitting and "accruing problems," as you have suggested

    (I don't particularly believe that cars doing nothing is automatically terrible for them, but I do find it a crying shame that these cars aren't being driven)

    I won't name names, but I was told by a respected seller of these cars that interest has been down of late. They reduced the price of one of their cars, accordingly.

    Ultimately, cars sell or they don't sell because of their price. If the market needs to be more realistic, eventually, it probably will be.


     
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  2. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    True. With talk of a global recession.. I anticipate reductions in the price of many luxury goods...
     
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  3. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Jul 1, 2013
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    I would have taken your points personally if you had insulted me, which I agree you have not.

    You could buy something multiple times and still denigrate it. They are not mutually exclusive actions.

    Finally, by all means, be critical, heck, say you hate the car and call it of the devil, we welcome it. However, do expect folks to disagree, which is what is happening here.
     
  4. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    I agree with your point #1. Definitely, do your homework and patience often yields bargains. I'm sincerely pleased we have an agreement.
    The basic premise of your point #2 is odd. It's not worth more or less then what it's being traded for at this moment int time. I think perhaps you're saying they are currently overvalued? (which is a fair prognostication)
    point #3 - I know of no Ferrari that offers Toyota reliability. It's just the reality of a small production car. Experiences will vary by a wide margin. Again, I think what you're saying is don't expect mass production level of reliability with a Ferrari. Uhh, yes. agree.
     
  5. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Curt, this is spot on. To the OP, forgive us if we seem haughty, it's just some of the points here are so painfully obvious to us. I think we can overlook some information may legitimately not be known by some.

    For example, here in the States at least, it's widespread knowledge that a used Ferrari is not as reliable as a used Honda. So when somebody expects differently, it can appear as extreme naivete.
     
  6. Daddy

    Daddy Rookie

    Jun 4, 2018
    10
    #206 Daddy, Aug 10, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
    I didn't really mind the rest of your post, but this last bit is a bit nonsensical.

    "Nobody has to sell you anything for the price you think they should accept."

    I'm assuming you mean the market as a whole and not a singular person. Because I don't think OP ever suggested that he was the sole arbiter of what cars should go for. In that case any sustainable business will need to sell their products at a rate that is acceptable by the market.


    "If this were true, we'd ALL be driving a new Ferrari F8 for $25,000 USD"

    The price of a F8 is $350k because that is what Ferrari thinks the market will bear. If every Ferrari buyer would only pay $25k for a Ferrari... Guess what, Ferrari will start making $25k sports cars or go out of business. But that is obviously not the case. The market is what determines the price.


    "If a dealer doesn't want to sell you a car for what you think they should sell it for even though it hasn't sold in a year or three... they don't have to."

    But that doesn't mean the car isn't overpriced. If a car isn't selling for years, the market agrees its overpriced. Thats all OP said, and hes not wrong.

    A single car being overpriced does not indicate they are able to or are immune to the rules of business. I guarantee you that dealerships and even Ferrari follow the rules of business very well.
     
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  7. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    People are forgetting that there are different rules at play here vs normal market rules...

    These cars are basically toys and not cars in the traditional sense. More often than not they are owned outright and owned as part of larger collection of cars. I don't know a single Ferrari owning friend whom has one as their only car. This changes dimensions a little. Why? Well a large proportion of owners don't actually need to sell them but may decide to if a good offer comes along. Ive seen this before in other markets too and yes it tends to make prices and product stick a little more than you would expect.

    There are reasons why they would be happy to sell such as a new car may be getting more attention so its not been driven for a while, etc. Actually just getting space back for a replacement toy may be more of a concern. Certainly though many appreciate that the vast majority of depreciation is done and its not really costing them much to keep hold of a 360 anymore.

    While this description of sale is not the case for all 360's, a good chunk of owner's simply aren't worried either way if it sells or not. This allows those cars to be less aggressively priced and therfore only sell to someone whom truely wants that spec, those rarer special order options like carbon seats, etc.
     
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  8. Daddy

    Daddy Rookie

    Jun 4, 2018
    10
    Oh yeah, for sure. I know people that immediately list their car for sale higher right after buying it. Individual sales are way different dynamics than dealerships.
     
  9. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    My post just iterated that the market is free. I've walked out of dealerships. Nothing was keeping me there involuntarily. I didn't have to buy the car that they were selling at their price, they don't have to be courteous, nice or even fair. They can do whatever they want in their business, and often do (what is a "prep fee" or "protective coating"). Even if the market deems a car overpriced, it is the dealerships right to ignore the market. Sure they may go out of business at one point.. but UNTIL that point they can do whatever they want.

    Not sure I agree with the dynamics being that different. An individual who overpaid for their car and refuses to accept market values isn't that different from OP's formal dealerships..?
     
  10. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
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    Oct 29, 2010
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    I think there was some interesting takes and experiences conveyed by the OP and thereafter by other members.

    But the OP's assertions that the market is (my paraphrase) "full of idiots that won't sell him a 360 for what he himself has deemed the right price", is off-putting (said kindly, but more accurately reeks of naivete or arrogance or lack of understanding of the word "market"). He, it seems, doesn't see his statements re price in that way. Oh well.
     
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  11. reddog

    reddog Rookie

    Aug 5, 2007
    37
    This was an interesting read. A few thoughts:
    One, many (most?) markets are NOT rational. The Ferrari market absolutely. As a performance car, every Ferrari of every era can be beat for less money. A big portion of the price is emotional, whether it is appreciation for the ethos of Enzo, or simply the prestige of something exotic and expensive.
    Two, the Ferrari market is illiquid. For nearly every other car, you can get a "wholesale" average price from Manheim in the US, and I'm guessing similar auction services in other countries. Not for Ferrari, because they don't trade often enough at auction to create a price. So that makes determining a price more of a crap shoot and whether it is what to ask or pay.
    Three, there is another factor involved in pricing from the private seller side. Because of the emotional aspect, a few sellers will invest too much of their self-worth into owning the car, or too much of their actual worth. The result can be a price not necessarily in line with the broader market that their are reluctant to deviate from.
    Four, every car dealer, from Hyundai to Koenigsegg, is like the Mustang Ranch. If you go in with your paycheck and not much of a clue, you will leave well screwed with an empty wallet. Although, likely with a broader smile exiting the ranch :) It's a good idea to educate yourself well before entering either, if you choose to at all.
     
  12. randkin

    randkin Formula 3

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    Reddog - I find your comments pretty spot on with just the right amount of humor to go with. I notice you don't post much since you joined in 2007, 12 years ago and only have 37 posts. I would encourage you to post more often, all posts don't have to be a gem to be fun or interesting.
     
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  13. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula Junior
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    Jun 20, 2017
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    The "trading hands and ownership" issue is a very good point made by reddog in regards to values. I deal with a lot of old classics of every stripe. And there is a magazine called Old Car Price Guide that lists pricing on just about every car ever made. To think that this publication can be even remotely close to actual values is silly when you consider the cars that sell privately with not an inkling of what the actual agreed price for the sale was. Also considering the cars at public auction that are truly a bit scarce and change hands maybe once every 5 to 10 years -- how can anyone accept a market price on these cars.

    All Ferraris are rare. The production numbers are very low. To expect one blanket price "guide" is unrealistic IMO. But with that said, there are the outliers at both ends of the retail scale. Overpriced cars that will almost never see a sale and some that are in the hands of someone (dealers included) that are just more than ready to let it go for a very attractive price. That is where the hunt with patience, due diligence, and savvy are on the buyer to invest in.
     
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  14. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    108
    All Ferraris are rare..? The 360's production numbers are actually in line with the R8 - just over a shorter amount of years.

    For Ferrari, the 360 was akin to the "Boxster moment" for Porsche (in comparative terms). Production doubled from previous models and I think have remained at a similar level since

    Aside from some initial teething issues (mentioned, now sorted), I did get a very nice example at £50k - so probably around £10-15k under "market value."

    There is a great great deal of irrationality behind buying a Ferrari from the actual price being paid (by anyone) to living with one (rational people would buy a 911, most of the time)

    But that doesn't mean we all have to abide by that irrationality.


     
  15. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    #215 360trev, Aug 19, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
    Yes if you live in UK!

    Regarding Ferrari 360 Modena's, they are fast becoming a rare sight (in the UK).

    Way more than half of registered cars got exported, half of the rest are SORNd, off the road without road tax or insurance, probably in various states of repair. More are leaving still due to the ridiculously weak pound...

    So approximately 335 cars road registered and legal of that how many on the road at any one time actually driving and not stored in garages? Considerably less than 0.01% of registered cars on the road in UK. Thats rare in my book...

    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    108
    https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?page=1&q=ferrari

    The 360 is the most common car here potentially, especially if Spiders are not on this list. More 360s (overall, potentially) than Calis and Calis are coming way down in price

    I think the engine through glass aesthetic was an enormous event for the car industry and really, 20 years later, what has actually changed? I still see the 360 design in the 458 / 488 / F8 / R8 / various McLarens / Gallardo / Huracan / even the new mid-engined Corvette - they are all just remodelled (and obviously improved) iterations of the 360 design

    Very long way of saying it did quite well sales-wise / there's a few of em about :D

    Amazing cars though! It was never the point to downplay how GREAT these cars are when they are on point

    But there is a bit of Ferrari black magic at work that says their values should never drop to (slightly more) realistic levels and that *every* Ferrari model should appreciate over time

    Then again, certain things DO hold their value. I'm a guitar player and a Gibson fan and am fully aware that my Les Paul will tend to hold its value better than virtually any other brand of guitar out there

    It'll be interesting to see how the 360 market goes. I'm happy I paid what I wanted to pay though. Less in-built risk of loss!
     
  17. pilotoCS

    pilotoCS Formula Junior
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    May 19, 2019
    995
    Wash DC
    I would like to thank everyone on these threads for being generous with their information and enthusiasm. :)
     
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  18. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula Junior
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    Jun 20, 2017
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    And frankly, I can't remember the last time I saw an R8. And yes Ferraris are rare. The numbers spread over a worldwide export for any given iteration (360 or 430) are guaranteeing that you don't see them very often. About 16.5K examples over a six year run of the 360 comes out to about 2700 cars exported each year throughout the world. In my book, that's a small enough number to call it rare.

    So congrats on your commonplace car.;)
     
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  19. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    108
    Update:

    Car has broken down again.
     
  20. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Karting
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    May 25, 2019
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    As the old saying goes: "You get what you pay for."
     
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  21. J360M

    J360M Rookie

    Nov 29, 2018
    41
    #221 J360M, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
    Sorry to hear this... but I am sure It’s teething problems.. get it up and running, use it regularly, put it on a battery tender, get it regularly serviced by AV (proactive approach) and never jump start it and it will look after you.

    No car manufacturer designs their products to be used irregularly... this will be the issue not that 360’s are inherently unreliable...

    I’ve had some lovely Italian and British sports cars over the years and the biggest regular issues I have had have been with my daily BMW’s... I had major issues with X5’s (cracked block at 30,000 miles) X3’s (cracked flywheel at 2,000 miles, cutout issues at motorway speeds, new gearbox at 4,000 miles) and 5 Series (leaked like a sieve from new). Many other major issues and all regular with BMW regardless of being used daily. Thank god for the various Ferrari’s over that time to fall back on...

    Hope you get it sorted..


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  22. Scott98

    Scott98 Formula 3
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    Don’t let it get you down. Newly purchased (old) cars often need some sorting.
     
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  23. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    108
    Christ. Some people really have issues with their life.

    Please show me this empirical proof you have that no £80,000 Ferrari 360 ever broke? I'd love to see your data on this.

    My other points, which get readily forgotten with all this sensitivity over asset value.. Are that these cars can be quite sensitive machines that need fairly regular and careful upkeep. So I can't be wrong on both scores!

    In fact, I feel one point really plays into the other in that it would be my agreement to pay LESS for this car on the basis I know it will need MORE maintenance over time.

    I can't imagine how irritated I would be right now had I overpaid (in my mind). I'm irritated enough as it is..

     
  24. Rosso_United_1999

    Mar 31, 2019
    108
    My issue as it stands is thus...

    Spirited driving.. 2nd 3rd gear..

    - Sudden loss of power

    - no throttle in any gear

    - car revs fall to virtually nothing and is lumpy as hell

    - car sort of "rev-coughs" repeatedly at which point I switch her off

    Weirdly, the car also hisses on gas (and very noticeably only on gas) from the left. I have the left window fully down. Does that intake at the side suck air in under throttle?

    The car didn't idle particularly well this morning but settled so possibly it's just a coil pack or two.. And not the ****ing variators (the recall has been done on this car)

    All ideas welcome
     
  25. kes7u

    kes7u Formula Junior

    Oct 18, 2017
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    Shorewood, MN
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    Kevin
    I think if you have an extensive PPI by a well qualified shop as well as extensive service records showing no current issues or delayed maintenance, AND you are able to pay well below market value, then that is all you can really do.

    The issue becomes if you pay well below market value without extensive knowledge of the car and its history. Current car issues and delayed maintenance can easily eat up any savings, and then some.

    I found a car with a near perfect PPI, and was OK to pay at or likely slightly above market value. This does not mean that the car was not going to have any issues, but I have been fortunate thus far. (knock on wood!!!)

    Kevin
     

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