Hi all, I posted a few days ago for the first time and I have question re buying. I have seen some fairly wide price ranges that seem to be related to mileage, which seems normal car-buying-wise, but also to maintenance records which has never been a big issue with other used cars I have purchased/sold. I have always done all my own work, most recently on my 2000 Porsche 911 which I bought new and sold in late 2007. Among all the normal service requirements, I rebuilt the transmission (they don't make 'em like they used to!), added headers/cats/muffs/chip. When I sold it, the buyer didn't care at all about the fact that I did all work as opposed to the dealer. There were no "maintenance records" per se and I got what I was asking from the first person who looked at the car. However, this seem to be quite different with used Ferrari's. There is a great deal of info both here and other sites regarding how important it is to have complete maintenance records available on the car. On the other hand, I have also seen here that a lot of folks do at least some of their own maintenance, a few seem to do virtually everything. So, when searching for a car - in my case most likely a 348 - I'm curious as to how this REALLY works... If there are two 348s that appear equal, one with all of the service records from "John Doe's Ferrari Dealer/Service Emporium" and the other with "service records" consisting of all the parts receipts (from Ricambi or whoever) for the same services done by the owner, Is the dealer/mechanic-maintained 348 inherently "worth" more than the owner-maintained car? I certainly understand that having work shop-done does not necessarily make it better than home-done. But if I'm selling a car and show that I've done all the work, regardless of how good I might be, you don't know me at all and have no idea if I've really done the work and if the work was done properly. Of course that's not to say that a dealer/mechanic doesn't get it wrong sometimes as well. I'd really be interested in the opinions of the folks here both from the buying and selling aspect. Thanks! MikeP
Buyers would have more of a tendacy to go with a dealer serviced car more than a home serviced car....Alot easier to fudge home records of service than dealer documentation...
I don't think the resale price would change if the work is well documented, but some prospective buyers may be leery about owner servicing. From a cost perspective I don't think it's worth paying a dealer / independent to do the work just to keep resale up. But you if you're not comfortable doing the work yourself paying an independent to do it makes sense - it gets done right and records are solid for resale. If you like doing work yourself, go for it and keep the records. To me working on it is half the fun of ownership!
IMO it would depend on who did the work. I have had more bad workmanship with dealers than independants and I have seen concours quality done by 'carnuts'. The dealers and independants have time schedules and are doing it for profit, so little details are usually not on the aganda for them. I have seen the best work by the owners who take a lot of pride of ownership. They do it for the satisfaction of making it 'perfect'.
+1 what Gothspeed said The way I see, it an owner who has the ability and desire to drop an engine in a 355 very probably in going to be much more sensitive to replacing every wear item. This really has to be a labor of love, as opposed to simply a job. If the owner maintained car has a log and receipts for all that was done, and I had some insight into the owners ability to have done the work properly I would be more inclined to place a higher value on it. Im considering a car right now that has had the major done in-house. A dealer now owns the car and has prepped it for sale. Knowing how dealers watch the bottom line I am concerned about cost cutting on the major, as every dollar spent in servicing this car affects their profit. In my case I am relying on the dealers reputation, and while good for the most part, Im suspicious of dealers by nature. Yes, I need a PPI on it, but how do I find a PPI mechanic across the country, especially one that does not have a relationship with the dealer Im dealing with?
In either case, you need to see the receipts, either for the parts or for the complete service. Then you need to determine how knowledgable either the owner or the service shop is. For the owner, I'd have him walk through a couple of the things he did.......how did you do the brake job on this, run into any problems? And look around his garage, I've seen guys that claim all sorts of mechanical skills but the only tools he has is a $100 set of craftsman hand tools......no compressor, no floor jack, no volt meter, etc.
I generally agree with the above. An owner who takes the time to learn about Ferrari maintenance is probably a real gearhead and someone I would buy a car from, however, unless they are particularly impressive wrenches, I might not trust their ability to do a major in their garage. Now if they were a stooge, it might be different... But generally, I prefer to either buy a car from someone who has no clue and took the car to the dealer for any little thing (and paid for it) or a total car nut who was under the thing every other weekend tweaking.
Well said! I think $30K in snap-on tools sitting next to the car helps Take a look at the owners garage and talk to them. I'd go with an owner maintained car any day of the week based on how I was able to size up that persons history, and ability. I've seen and heard many bad stories with dealers. If the buyer is new to F-cars, and is not a gearhead (Hopefully not the case )I can understand the tendacy to go with a dealer car. In my case I took pictures of all the work that I did and am very proud of the results. I don't anticipate problems when selling and actually think it will be easier. I stand behind my work, and when I sell will offer some sort of warranty with terms of course
Take photographs of all the work you do as proof and I don't think it will make THAT big of a difference. If anything I'd be more apt to buying a car that the owner truly cared for mechanically and understood.
I knew these question would arise any day. Of course you all have heard my rant on owner maintenance......It for me is fun to work on the car as I'm sure it is for many of you but do not expect a return....... The car positively will bring LESS money.....Sorry that is a fact. Unless you are selling the car to someone you know and that knows your ability they will look down on your maintenance efforts. Of course there can be hack dealers and mechanics but trust me when I say this...... There are a million more hack owners trying to save money by doing the work themselves. With that said you must remember that you guys that post regularly aren't the norm....You should see the "expert" owner maintained crap I had to fix this year......A real hot button with me! Of course, dealer and independent guys try to bust the flat rate. This is how profit is made. I've worked in a garage and trust me it is hard to do. However, when an owner is reading the manual and meticulously fiddling the pro is on to the next task because he or she has done that task a hundred times, that is called experience. Not rushing..... This is a sore subject to me because earlier in this thread someone posted that if they look like a car nut and have 30K in tools one should feel good about the purchase from that individual...Good point but.........What do you think the response will be when you show them a pile of parts receipts and pictures of the back end of your car up in the air on two floor jacks??????? Not saying it's bad but assume the identical car was for sale same year and miles with fully documented receipts from D. Helms, Eugenio or NJB...... Sorry, the answer is clear.
........ unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. Not everyone has a trustworthy and/or competent F-car maintenance center in their neighborhood. These cars have repairs for every skill level. If one took it to a shop for everything, one could easily exceed the value of the car in very short order. One of the purposes F-chat serves is to draw from a great number of owners, mechanics and enthusiasts pool of knowledge and experience. This is a great resource, as anyone looking for information can ask someone other than the person/shop who makes a living fixing these cars. No one here claims to know it all, but as we know it is unfortunately possible that a shop may not have our best interest on the itinerary. Either by incompetence........or even possibly…...... on purpose…. 1. I remember there was a new owner on here who had an F1 system hydraulic leak. He was distressed because the dealer had just quoted him, from what I recall $4000 to replace a few F1 hydraulic hoses. That the dealer's mechanics with 'all their experience/knowledge said were leaking. We told him to clean the area and maybe he can see where it is leaking from. The culprit was a banjo fitting crush washer. He replaced it for a couple of bucks and probably less time than it would have taken to take it back to the dealer. In comparison...... he would have to organise dropping the car off, shuttle ride home, maybe a few days goes by..... waiting for that 'its fixed' phone call..... then go back to the dealer ..... bend over ..... then thank them for doing a 'great job' so not to harm the great service relationship they are kindling. 2. I know of at least one shop owner who has told me about how some owners (some very very wealthy), would rarely bring their cars in for service. Some were just too busy or some may have not cared until something broke. They then instruct the mechanic to fix only what is neccessary because they have the next model F-car coming soon. So even a great mechanic has no choice but to only fix what he is getting paid for....... or lose a customer. This owner knows nothing about his car and does not care to know. He bought this thing to pick up chicks or to impress his dinner guests. He only cares to keep the car running. So because he has tons of receipts from a great mechanic, does it mean the car has been impeccably maintained??? If it is not on an invoice then it must not be broken or need fixing?? A PPI cannot catch everything..... IMO the owner is who I buy from and if he is a total enthusiast then I will feel a lot better about that than if he had tons of money. Both would be good too . But a 'car enthusiast' would be first on my list... There are plenty of arguments for both sides of this issue...............as well as a host of great mechanics................... but I will take a neurotic, 'car nut' or OCD owners car which ever way he chooses to maintain it....... be it home shop maintained, independant shop/dealer or both...... .
Re-sale value becomes relative to the perceived value of the vehicle in question. My personal experience revolved first on my first Ferrari a 328 and recently a 355. Having worked on cars all of my life, when it came to working on a Ferrari, I, like others became fearful of my abilities to work on a " Ferrari ". My fear was not on my ability to do a major service, but of the all important " re-sale value and documentation ", so I compromised. I happen to have as a neighbor JDM Motorsports .... this particular shop caters to that specific non Ferrari customer that spends thousands of dollars in performance enhancements, where quality of workmanship and due diligence is a must for these highly tuned vehicles. The attention to detail required to build a 400HP+ non Ferrari street motor goes without saying. In my case the appearance of the shop, the array of common tools complemented with micrometers and verniers, gave me a sense of " guarded " security that this particular mechanic could indeed handle a 30K service on a Ferrari. Now, this does not mean that you will be paying low low pricing, but in my case I saved about $1,500.00 from a comparable quote in the San Diego area. Gabe at JDM documented the whole process with pictures and presented me with a full report of work performed . At the end of the day..... I've come to the conclusion that we work our rear ends off to get to a point in our lives to buy a " Dream Car ", and I for one have accepted the fact, that if a future buyer questions the servicing process of my Ferrari(s) and walks away, there will be others that will appreciate it. In my case it becomes a moot point, as I don't plan on selling my cars ...just growing the stable !
The attention to detail required to build a 400HP+ non Ferrari street motor goes without saying. In my case the appearance of the shop, the array of common tools complemented with micrometers and verniers, gave me a sense of " guarded " security that this particular mechanic could indeed handle a 30K service on a Ferrari. Exactly my point.....I think you are basically confirming my opinion..... There are WAY too many specific tools required to accomplish any given task the "correct" way on ANY machine..... I realize that although I do much of my own work I probably will not see resale increase. However, if Goth's theory is correct then I feel better about having the right tools. We fabricated a 4 post hydraulic subframe stand, bought a lift and have purchased every single special spline drive puller, sockets, spline drive dog bone for the heads, you name it...That's just for my 355's....My idea was that I saved alot of money on maintenance and I took the money I saved and bought the correct equipment to support the rest of that "growing stable" in the future.... Goth, I agree with you on all counts, do not misunderstand... The folks on here for the most part do not represent the "hillbillies" that exist in the real world and that is what I am referring to. Here is what pisses me off to no end....Jack dents on the undercarriage from a hillbilly, valve stem seals found in the pan of my first motor, again remnants of a hillbilly....Or how about this,,,,,Instead of replacing the ENTIRE harness in the spider they hacked it in half and buttspliced "THE ENTIRE" main TCU harness together...Guess why.....Because they could not drop the tank without a lift.....So we had to do it "correct" and replace the harness...Sure was a pain.... I see this even in aviation of all things, fortunately I got out of the "owner assist" annual inspection good ol boy crowd along time ago and went after corporate clients where people appreciate nice equipment a clean facility, insurance, and most importantly the know how to accomplish a task. I guess that explains alot about my personal beliefs in a good "real" shop. It's not easy at all to make a living in maintenance of any sort and building a good reputation takes time. That is why I appreciate many of the shop owners on here and I also support them with work... I think overall the collective thinking on Fchat has saved me alot of money but that collective thinking comes from a "group"...That group isn't just a band of owners with floor jacks and Kobalt tools. That "group" consists of all of us and then input from Helms, Jack, Craig, Vern, Fatbillybob, enginefixr, etc.. those guys add alot to this... So in real life I do what I can but really even with all of those tools and a band of technicians recognize from my own experience that Dave, Eugenio, Jack, Craig and the rest of the guys in the heat of battle everyday have forgotten more than some of us will ever learn...Thats why I believe in paying someone you trust when the time is right... sorry for the rant and I mean it in good humor Here are some photos of "play time" which is of course the real value in DIY jobs...Hard to put a price on that Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Over the last 35 years I have done all my own work on my cars. Always keep a journal on what was done, how, why etc. and most of the time took photos of the process. Had a guy in Florida buy both my 308 GTB and my GT4 because of the well documented service records. I have seen to many mistakes made by dealers to bother with them and they don't take pictures or document anything they just give you a list of parts they replaced that only tells half the story.
Not at all....Come on over It's a tough industry overall....Don't be fooled by the cars, they're just therapy so I do not lose my mind.. 'Weasel Here is what airplane wrenching looks like.. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I think one of those planes should be painted red ! and jetfixr should be " Pegasus " ( a flying horse )..... an obvious good perspective on service.
Nice 355 Challenge on your profile.... Nice hangar pics............ jetfixer ....... ............... memories ........
