Buying tips

Hi all!

I've been seriously bitten by the 400/412 bug and I'm on the hunt for one. Im not new to classic cars or older Ferraris.

Having done a bunch of searches, I'm not coming up with any definitive list of tips for first time 400/412 buyers.

Could you please share your tips?

Also, I'm in California, but I'm potentially open to cars that are not already registered here. Any one with tips to get one registered here? Cost, what's involved, etc.?

Cheers!

Ruben

 

The first decision is which transmission do you want. Expect to pay a premium for the manual of course. I think the range is $25k for a complete but very needy rust-free car to $100k for the finest specimen ever discovered. A car that nice would have a complete history of having never been restored but in perfect condition with tons of service records AND ultra low miles. Personally, I've never heard of or seen a car such as that. The rest of the driver condition cars sell for $30k -$45k. I would not even remotely consider a body with rust issues no matter the price. Again, just an opinion. But you did ask!

There are certainly more knowledgeable folks about the finite details who can direct you for critical things. My thoughts should at least get you started narrowing your search.

Good luck and enjoy what you buy!

 

The first decision is which transmission do you want. Expect to pay a premium for the manual of course. I think the range is $25k for a complete but very needy rust-free car to $100k for the finest specimen ever discovered. A car that nice would have a complete history of having never been restored but in perfect condition with tons of service records AND ultra low miles. Personally, I've never heard of or seen a car such as that. The rest of the driver condition cars sell for $30k -$45k. I would not even remotely consider a body with rust issues no matter the price. Again, just an opinion. But you did ask!

There are certainly more knowledgeable folks about the finite details who can direct you for critical things. My thoughts should at least get you started narrowing your search.

Good luck and enjoy what you buy!

 

Thanks Scott... I'd really like a manual, also a fairly sorted one at that. The price range you quote makes sense... The key question is how much of a premium for manual.

Any further thoughts or tips you guys may have would be very much appreciated!

Cheers!

Ruben

 

Though new to the car, and the brand, I'm m going to be a little contrarian here.

Overall, I "get" the 5-speed premium, but having driven both, and own one (the auto), I'm not sure this car's personality is best served w/ the manual.

It's a big, heavy GT with tons of torque. But it's no sports car.

If you live and or will do all your driving in rural/suburban areas, sure, maybe the 5 speed makes sense.

But, in traffic, why bother?

I compare this car to things like a CL Mercedes or a Porsche 928 or a BMW 8-series, and the great bulk of those cars were ordered and bought in Auto (just like this car).


Conversely, I can't imagine my 930 in auto.

Or my 1970 Corvette LT-1 in auto.

So, yes, I do support the market premium for the 5-speed, but, depending on use, if you goal is anything beyond investment (where the 5 speed will clearly do better), I might suggest - depending on use - and what ever else is in the collection - the money might be better spent on a BETTER auto than any 5 speed.

No ONE right answer, but just my take as an owner of one for 6 months.

-JA

 

I agree completely with this analysis! The only other consideration is the marketability of the manual over the auto. But the point is well made and I believe dead on, you'll get more later and maybe able to sell it a bit quicker if you ever finish with it, but that will carry an up front fee that may not be worth it to you. Choose wisely. Not to mention there are many more opportunities to acquire a great car if you'll consider an automatic.

Personally, identical cars but manual over auto should only be a $10k-$20k max. spread. As before, just my personal opinion. No absolutes in this discussion!

 

Awesome thank you very much for the info - super helpful!

Any tips as to what to look out for in terms of the cars itself? Any weak points to consider/evaluate?

 

I had a nice 400i 5 speed and a PERFECT 412 auto-

Sold the 5 speed and kept the auto.

I vastly prefer the automatic cars- just suits the car better,

 

That's a solid testament to the auto.

 

They are not sport cars. Cruise is the word. Go auto if you want to run in traffic or interstate. The auto is a fun attention getting driver. Once fixed very reliable. If anything is not perfect. Look out pocketbook. You will wish you never thought of the car. I have owned six. It was a mental and financial test. I did buy a one owner in 2006. Site unseen. Drove it until 2013. Without doing anything. I think I got damn lucky. Took it to a shop because timing chain was all at once noisy. Shop was sorry and raped my wallet. Took two years to sort the car out. Stalk switch will be the first warning. It must function ever time. Oil leaks. Watch out timing chain noise. Lenses. Big time dollars. Glass. Cost killer. AC. And all the rest. You cannot go to a local parts house

 

Well said.

The 70-100MPH burst in a 412 is a magical thing- and there's just no need to row your own in a car like this. I get that if this is your one and only Ferrari- the desire is for vroom vroom sports car stuff- but for me the 400/412 is designed to transport people of a certain stature from point to point in style and luxury.

 

Sorry guys.......say it all you want.....5-speed all the way. Yes, even in a car like this....

 

I had the same "problem": auto or manual?

From a European point of view, where everyone drives a stick shift car, autos are beginning to being considered "an alternative" - if the engine has enough displacement, and the 400 has.

I've never regretted bying auto - even on winding country roads.

there's tons of info on the 400 including every buyers guide ever published on Ferrari 400

 

I would agree with you if I still owned my 5 speed but, since I am "between Ferraris" right now, I'd appreciate it if you would let everyone turn the 5 speed price premium into a discount.

PS: Have you found another 348 to replace the one I looked at for you?

 

I bought my 365GT4 2+2 manual 7 months ago. Have not driven the car even one time yet. Spent $40k so far. Worst single part cost me $2k which was the headlight stalk switch. That said, 80% of the investment to date is in cosmetics. She has very low mileage, substantial mechanical service history and has not been problematic for the transport drivers or repair shops to date starting, idling, or the limited driving around.

Should actually drive the car this week!!!

Then tear into a few more projects after the shakedown. The good news? Values support repairs so far. But there is a limit and I'm not far off!

 

No, unfortunately I have not. . Still looking. Also, that reminds me, I need to reply to your email.

 

Thanks very much guys for the perspectives. I've arrived at an agreement to purchase the 87 412 manual (63321) that is being sold at Gullwing in NY, pending my inspection and PPI.

Here's the car: 1987 Ferrari 412i -

If the car is as described, I think I'll be very happy. I'll be flying to NYC later this week to inspect the car and will be doing a PPI later in the week as well.

Any PPI recommendations in the NYC area? The limitation is that Gullwing wants to have the PPI done on at their location, so it would need to be someone that is willing to do a PPI there.

Any of you around this NYC dealer and would mind coming by to give me a second opinion? They'll be a beer along with good Ferrari chatting in it for the trouble!

Have any of you seen this car in person and can provide some insight?

Some less than ideal things:

1. The car has gone through a couple of dealers in recent months and the records seem to not be present. From doing searches here, the car has been serviced at Bobileff for the last 10 years and after speaking with Gary, he's agreed to share some of the history with me (awesome guy!). If anyone has a lead on prior owner, I'd love to get an intro to rebuild the history somehow. Please PM me.

2. I don't know the specifics as to why it's been through 3 dealers in the first half of this year... Apparently the car was sold to someone in OH but the sale was somehow aborted. Anyone with details, I'd love to get a PM. For now I'm going in VERY cautiously... Would appreciate any help!

Again, thank you all for the tips and perspectives!

I'm keeping fingers crossed that everything continues to go smoothly from here on out!

Cheers!

Ruben

 

Congratulations. Blue on blue is a classic but don't be in a sad mood before you drive it as it will probably just exaggerate it.

 

X 365!!!!!! If none of you bloke's have ever tried to punt your car around some twisty bits,then you've seriously missed out on a driving experience....and if you don't want to....then IMO,you shouldn't be contemplating the brand.

Having never driven any type of 400,I cannot think of ANYTHING more boring and uninspiring as an automatic Ferrari.....................unless you don't have the use of your left leg!!

Having said THAT,I wouldn't be interested in driving/owning any type of Ferrari that doesn't have Mr Weber's special bits,therefore precluding me from the 400 typo(unless there were auto 400GT's ?).

 

Not sure if you know Ruben, but 63321 was featured in Forza Magazine Issue 29 from May 2001. I don't have it to hand, but remember it as being a one-owner car back then, in its original black. I can dig out the magazine tonight.

David

 

David,
Thanks for sharing.
I just looked at Forza #29 and realized 63321 is nearly identical to my car (manual, black with blue interior, except mine is RHD !! ) It' was a while ago, but I think that article put me on the path to 412 ownership !

M

 

It looks good in the pictures on the Gullwing website. The Forza article does a good job of describing what the car is like to drive.

I'm biased , to me the 412 manual is a milestone car. It represents the final evolution of the traditional Ferrari front engine V12 manual using the Colombo engine . This combination traces its roots all the way back to the beginning of Ferrari.
And derivatives of the engine design have competed at LeMans, Daytona, Tour De France etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_Colombo_engine

The 412 is also the final version of Ferrari's longest produced model run - (1973 365 GT4 2+2 to 1989 412 ) - 16 years - a record unlikely to be surpassed.

These cars are an absolute bargain compared to any other earlier V12 manual Ferrari. And because of power steering , ABS brakes and anti dive suspension geometry and a 5L V12 they drive better (and are faster) than many more revered (and expensive) earlier models

 

One thing that is often overlooked is that, while the 400/400i is considered a big car by Ferrari standards, it is smaller than you think, about the same size or smaller than, say, a Camaro. Park a 400i next to a Toyota Camry and the Camry dwarfs the Ferrari in size.

 

....and that was EXACTLY what I was trying to portray in my previous rant.
If you think these things are for the folk who think they're getting a freeway cruiser,rather than an outright sportscar,then they haven't explored(or have the inclination to),the extremeties of their VERY capable ride.

As an example,there is an Aussie poster here,who,on an illicit run in Aussie(a lot like the wonderful movie..The Gumball Rally...where the inspiration came from),comes up from Victoria,to come with me on one specific piece of highway.
It was posted,a couple of years ago,on YT,then because the owner/driver,could be identified,taken off.This bloke has shared 2 years' with me...there must be a reason...other than a deathwish!
This bloke,this year ,is bringing a VW.....sorry...Porsche 911somethingorother,to try and emulate the terrific rides' we've shared in my 365.
It will be interesting to compare the experience,as I'm taking my alternate ride on this one....a 308 GT4.

 

Horses for courses... you know.

Not designed to be the Ferrari for racing around the b Roads. This is the grand tourer, and designed as such. Thoroughly enjoyed my 5 speed, just there are better Ferraris for carving up country roads.

But in either version- a wonderful car that thankfully, finally, is getting it's due.