Buying Without a PPI? | FerrariChat

Buying Without a PPI?

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Gumart1, Jan 9, 2013.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Gumart1

    Gumart1 Karting

    Dec 22, 2010
    117
    Highland Park, IL
    Full Name:
    Marty
    I've been looking at several 456's and a couple of 550's as well. I am the type of buyer that does not seek out perfection, a perfect service history or a low miles garage queen. I have had good experiences in the past and hope to repeat them, though I know this is not guaranteed.
    I am looking at a low mileage (under 10k) 1999 456 MGTA. It is silver in color with a beige interior.
    It is very muted and almost "boring" to my eyes, yet I am looking for a touring car that I can take my 7 year old in, without having all the attention.
    It is automatic which makes sense to me for the comforts and 2+2 seating for this car.
    But, I wonder if most Ferrari buyers have the opinion that a true Ferrari must have a manual shifter.
    I can get the car for around $47k, which on paper seems like a great deal especially with the mileage (and only 2 owners). My thinking is that even if it needs work it will hold value based on the clean 2-owner history and low miles.
    The other part of me says that I'm still taking a huge risk without a PPI.
    By the way, the Seller is Gullwing Motor Cars, and I'm curious if anyone has worked with them. From some searching I did find that they buy and sell without much knowledge of the vehicles. Thanks
     
  2. FerMaz

    FerMaz Formula Junior

    Feb 11, 2007
    355
    So Cal
    Full Name:
    Mel
    I am also new to the Ferrari world. I think it is a must to get a PPI. You can always schedule your deal subject to a PPI, but pay the price to get one. The unknowns can be too costly and you will always be wondering whether there is some hidden problem.

    Mel
     
  3. 2000 456M

    2000 456M F1 World Champ

    Sep 29, 2007
    12,600
    Portland, OR
    Full Name:
    Allan
    Why no PPI? If the seller won't allow it or won't make the sale contingent upon a satisfactory PPI, the car should be avoided. There are lots and lots of potential issues with a 14 year old Ferrari and you should know going in as many as possible. The $500 or so that it might cost (I'll ask the experts to provide a more accurate number) is the best investment you can possibly make. I can't stress this enough.

    Don't worry about other F-car owners' opinions of whether or not your autobox is a "true Ferrari." It is, and a great one at that. The auto actually is very well suited to the characteristics of the car and responds to kick down when you need it. Although it is less engaging on twisty roads, it is a boon in stop and go traffic, especially in hilly areas, and, of course, there's no difference when cruising on the highway. (Given the option, I'd have a 456M auto during the week and a 575 manual for weekend trips to the coast--without the kids :D).
     
  4. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    16,673
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Full Name:
    Matt F
    Listen to this part. :)

    First, there can be very real problems that Gullwing are genuinely unaware of.

    Second, by not getting a PPI, you lose the ability to negotiate an even lower price if problems are found.

    Matt
     
  5. Bahaba0

    Bahaba0 Karting

    Feb 4, 2010
    125
    Miami, Fl
    Full Name:
    David Stone
    Third a thorough ppi by a knowledgable mechanic can save you thousands in the long tun. This is a 14 year old car that has done under a 1000 miles a year. Be careful
     
  6. Gumart1

    Gumart1 Karting

    Dec 22, 2010
    117
    Highland Park, IL
    Full Name:
    Marty
    All great suggestions, thanks. The Seller has agreed to allow a PPI. I'm curious,
    is a leakdown/compression test something that is usually done with the PPI?
    Do they get into the car's transmission and belts and all that? The tranny being of concern without a maintenance history, plus the idea that there could be big problems (valve issues from what I've read) with the low mileage and lack of being driven.
     
  7. MVDESQ

    MVDESQ Formula 3

    Nov 25, 2010
    1,581
    Greenwich, CT
    Full Name:
    Matthew & Kristen V.
    I recently met a gentleman in a wheel chair that bought a nice 456 automatic as he could not drive a stick shift. He advised that in his research he learned that the automatic is actually a great general motors sourced unit. With that said, the transmission is probably the least of your worries. I'd be more concerned with dried out rubber hoses and bushings. I would get a compression test as even Ferrari dealers cannot put a power train warranty on eligible newer cars without one.

    Don't look at this car as an investment. If you buy it enjoy it. For some reason the market is never fond of 4 seater Ferrari's. 456 was always a nice looking car in my mind.

    Is this the Gullwing place in Queens, NY?
     
  8. JLuce

    JLuce Karting

    Feb 12, 2012
    73
    4th, the PPI will identify issues that need to be corrected and the cost of sorting your car at purchase is properly part of your purchase price. Instead of $47K, it could be $67K - is that still a good deal?

    Regarding a leakdown/compression test, it is absolutely part of a PPI and the best of all worlds is to have both because they provide different data. If you can't have both, I'd opt for the leakdown test.

    If you don't have service records showing when the tensioner bearings and timing belts were replaced (assuming they were), then your mechanic should be opening up the timing belt covers and checking condition. If you have a good mechanic, take the service records to him/her and get their recommendation on what needs to be checked/replaced. If you don't have records and have no idea when the bearings and belts were replaced, I'd plan on replacing them right away. The expense is nominal when compared to losing an engine.

    Good luck!
     
  9. treedee3d

    treedee3d F1 Rookie

    Apr 1, 2011
    3,726
    Montreal
    Full Name:
    Fab
    Been looking at the 456 market for a while and, at that price, I suspect this car must have something wrong with it...

    I also read mostly poor reviews about that place but haven't experienced it first hand.

    If the PPI checks out I'd buy it...
     
  10. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    28,997
    socal
    I think PPI's are mostly a waste. I bought 4 with no PPI with no problem. Buy the car right and know what you are buying. I am an advanced DIY'ER so that helps greatly. Only you know what is a good car to you.
     
  11. F-Nut

    F-Nut Karting

    Nov 30, 2008
    206
    Farmington, MI
    Full Name:
    Bill
    I'm an auto tech, and I would suggest getting a PPI. I personally do not have experience with the 456, but a PPI can save you a lot of hassle and frustration down the road. Is it a guarantee thats its in perfect shape? No, but it can save you from some larger expenses.


    Good luck!
     
  12. treedee3d

    treedee3d F1 Rookie

    Apr 1, 2011
    3,726
    Montreal
    Full Name:
    Fab
    I bought without a PPI the first time and got lucky that the car and engine was ok and I only needed mostly cosmetic work. I wouldn't want to keep doing that and play russian roulette all the time.

    My intention is to buy a 456 and before I buy it, I want a compression/leakdown test that's for sure.
     
  13. craterface

    craterface Formula Junior

    Apr 14, 2011
    622
    Sanibel Island, FL
    Agree. The budget for a PPI in the New York area with compression and leakdown is probably closer to $1,000. You really want someone to scan the car with the proper computer and look for stored codes (things like a misfire, that could have lead to slow down lights, etc). FBB is a semi-pro mechanic, so he can feel confident evaluating the car himself.

    Also, a PPI may reveal some things to help further whittle away at the price. You may end up paying low 40s, which would be really nice.

    Scott
     
  14. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    28,997
    socal
    FWIW, the whole thing about leakdown tests came to being due to all the issues with the 355. The Ferrari World should not let the 355 pollute and condemn the entire fleet.

    While it does happen, rarely does a good running Ferrari fail a leakdown test. Often there are other clues that a car is a dog before you spend money and time hassle on a leakdown test. A $30 buck 10 min smog check will give you numbers that are good clues to the state of engine running. In cali online by VIN is an entire smog history of a car. A $40 buck Harbor Freight OBD2 testor will pull OBD2 codes & pending codes. Those are primary reasons I think leakdown is not needed for joe average. Certainly, the best leakdown numbers are going to give you the strongest potential motor and compression/leak is the heart of the motor but kidney failure or lung disease will still kill you. There are many issues with buying used. My best advice still is "know yourself and know what you are buying."

    BTW, For $100 bucks I got this cool KIWI wifi OBD2 testor that bluetooths to my android phone. I can get real time OBD2 data including short and long term fuel trims etc for even more data on how good a car is running.
     
  15. BRADAN

    BRADAN Two Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Aug 29, 2009
    22,661
    West Babylon, NY
    Full Name:
    BRADAN
    I wouldn't recommend it. Now I'm sure everyone thinks it's because I'm a tech and looking to make a quick buck. Some guys look at a PPI as a golden ticket when buying a car. In truth it's an educated opinion of the cars overall condition nothing more. It's the same as buying a house without an engineers inspection. If your not a pro most times it's hard to even know what your looking at.
     
  16. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2006
    4,185
    Plantation, Florida
    Full Name:
    Alfredo
    You may get lucky and end up with a good car, but if you are not lucky, you will be very miserable.
    You will be out with more money than you have ever planned for and it will keep you from enjoying the car.
    Look at it as a form of insurance.
     
  17. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    28,997
    socal
    Ahh...and there in lies the problem. Insurance fixes things when something is wrong. A PPI is a snapshot in time. Something goes wrong and the new owner says *&^%$!!!! why didn't that show up in my $1000 PPI. That PPI mechanic must be a %&()(&^$%$#!!!!! That's why many shops won't do them anymore. It is just too hard to educate the public on what a PPI really means and what the value really is.
     
  18. treedee3d

    treedee3d F1 Rookie

    Apr 1, 2011
    3,726
    Montreal
    Full Name:
    Fab
    A PPI is not a crystal ball and you can't depend on it. A house inspection I can see as useless because it's easy for a normal person to detect if it shifted, roof leaks or smell of mildew. If it's been standing for 20+ years, there's a good chance it will stand another 20.

    A car, however, is a different story...especially a Ferrari! It's so much more intricate and many buyers are not knowledgeable enough to tell. Sure you look at who's selling it to you, the overall condition and if it runs well but it's not a bad idea to dig a little deeper. I've heard 456s have had their share of valve guide trouble, am I wrong FBB?
     
  19. philfrench

    philfrench Karting

    Jan 3, 2012
    104
    France
    You are right Bfore the 575 all bronze valve guide were poor quality ;one day or another the guide wearing will pop up the valve seals .........smoke and..12000euros later a fantastic car with imperativelly-new rubber hoses from SR innovations
    -new oil and water thermostats
    -etc I bought my 456MGT 2000 in feb 2010 after an expert report 54000euros and it costed 15000 euros with tyres for 15000 kms See a well knowned Fshop to do the ppi ...and read FCHAT good luck
     
  20. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,169
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Phil- Some batches of bronze valve guides were bad and some were good. Luck of the draw. Same for the F355. Have only heard of a couple of 550s with valve guide problems.
     
  21. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    28,997
    socal

    I am reasonably tuned in to Ferraris in general and 348/355/550 especially. Over 30 years of dinking with these things going back to 308 era the valve guide issues on Ferrraris are no different than what I would see in the general population of cars maybe a bit more because Ferraris are cr@p. Maybe a pro can chime in with real stats relative to production numbers. However, the 355 is a different animal all together and is the single model that brought PPI's to the low hanging fruit masses. PPI's used to be for high end Ferraris driving little bought by people with more money than time or desire to do their own homework. At the time the 355 was the most highly stressed motor of it's day. Over 100hp/L was a milestone for a streetcar. The 456 was nothing like it. There are a combination of issues in the 355 which conspire against it that do not occur in any other Ferrari model. I am not convinced that some valve guides were not in OEM spec in 456's. We do not know about other running conditions of those cars which could contribute in a major way. Even with the infamous 355 the routine use of steel valve guides and aftermarket headers is a workable symptom fix without really a cure. There are complete fixes for that model that ensure the proper running and they include more than new guides and headers. It appears that it will take several more years for mainstream John Q. to understand the 355 and what it takes to own one and not transfer that agony to the rest of the fleet.
     
  22. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,169
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    #22 tazandjan, Jan 11, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    FBB- One of the FChatters here had to change out the valve guides on his 456M at around 40,000 miles, and we had one Euro 550 owner who had the same problem. Hopefully the 456M owner can chime in on the issue. Ferrari issued a bulletin on changing to sintered steel guides on the 456M and 550 if guide wear became a problem, and, as mentioned, the 575M went to sintered steel guides.

    Brian Crall says good bronze guides work fine, but the ones used in Ferraris in the mid 90s-early 2000s were often substandard. Possibly the alloys were weaker or the casting was inconsistent. Not a widespread problem, but one that does occur.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  23. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    I am ASSUMING(I know) that if a 456 I am looking at has 50K+ miles that it is likely the guides were either already replaced or not going to be a problem, can you say this? Doc
     
  24. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,169
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Unfortunately, no, unless you have records that show it was done. Hit or miss on whether or not one had bad valve guides at all.
     
  25. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    28,997
    socal

    I think if you made 50K miles it is extremely unlikely you got a bad batch of guides. What would take place at this point is normal wear and tear driver and maintenance dependent. Looking at the fleet of 355's as an example there are many instances of guides with miles in the teens! In fact over my 30+ years I hear more 355 guide problems than all other models of ferrari combined and there are only 12,000 355's made and even less still running.
     

Share This Page