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C.A.R.T v I.R.L

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by stevej33, May 23, 2004.

  1. stevej33

    stevej33 Karting

    Feb 16, 2004
    76
    Lincoln, UK
    Full Name:
    Steve Jollands
    hi chaps

    could someone please explain the differences between CART and IRL in the
    states, as we dont get to see it in the UK and it seem very similar......

    steve j
     
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  3. bmiller411

    bmiller411 Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
    405
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bruce B Miller
    IRL = Open Wheel Oval Racing in spec cars and non-turbo engines

    CART/Champ Cars = Street, Closed Course & Oval racing in spec cars &
    tubo engines

    Tony George, the owner of the Indy Speedway, did not like the idea of shorting the month of May (Indy 500) and some other programs that the owners of CART wanted. So, Mr. George said to save the Indy 500 and to reduce the cost of open wheel racing and to bring more American Drivers to the sport, I will start my own series (IRL) and use the Indy 500 as the main draw. That was 10 years ago. Everything that the CART Owners wanted done is now being done. The IRL rules and equipment leave a lot to be desired. Fans dislike the series to the point that the INDY 500 is not sold out. That the INDY 500 has poor TV ratings and all the glamour that once was is not any more.

    Just My $.02
     
  4. stevej33

    stevej33 Karting

    Feb 16, 2004
    76
    Lincoln, UK
    Full Name:
    Steve Jollands
    thanks bruce,

    that seems to have explained things nicely.
    so the IRL cars are slower, less well spec'd cars i guess??
    the CART cars being higher spec turbo power'd....

    how do they relate to say F1 in terms of power, speed, cost etc??
    i find it very interesting!

    steve j
     
  5. bmiller411

    bmiller411 Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
    405
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bruce B Miller
    IRL tried cost control but when the better funded teams came aboard the cost went up. It runs about $5,000,000.00 on avg. This is about the same for Champ Car and that is per car.

    As far as power IRL is very low on power compared to Champ Car and Champ Car is almost equal to F1. 800 - 900 bhp area

    Champ Car and F1 booth handle a lot better then IRL. Keep in mind that the IRL is set up to turn left all the time. In 2005 the IRL plans on running a few road courses which means that they will have to rework their race cars.

    In the eyes of F1 the IRL tech is the lowest of any of the three.
     
  6. hps

    hps Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    338
    Canada
    What's CART ?
     
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  8. bmiller411

    bmiller411 Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
    405
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bruce B Miller
    CART + Champ Auto Racing Team They went BK and Champ Cars took over
    the program. Some still call them CART that is way you see both CART/Champ Cars or Champ Cars/CART or ORWS (Another name for Champ Cars)
     
  9. hps

    hps Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    338
    Canada
    ...I was being sarcastic.........referring to the insignificance of that once superior series....
    I live in Toronto....the race is 10 minutes away from my house...
    ...Trust me....nobody gives a toss about CART or the IRL....and they have nobody to blame but themselves....
    It was a great series once, better actual racing than anything, anywhere....but, now.....just 2 unhealthy series, with not enough sponsors or fans to go around.

    Sad thing is.....we are the losers in this fight between the 2.

    hps
     
  10. stevej33

    stevej33 Karting

    Feb 16, 2004
    76
    Lincoln, UK
    Full Name:
    Steve Jollands
    thanks guys! at least i now know..............
     
  11. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    1,953
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    In addition to what has already been said, F1 cars are the lightest of the three. Needless to say, they are the fastest as well.
     
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  13. F129b

    F129b Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2004
    478
    oc, calif.
    Full Name:
    Robert
    Let me chime in here Steve by reiterating how great CART used to be. As recently as 4 years ago when JPM won, it was awesome dynamic racing- multiple engine manufacturers, some great talented drivers, vastly different tracks and a high level of technology +HP. I don't believe that the Cosworth spec. engines are even making 800 HP anymore. It was so cool to see them set up those cars & drivers for a road course race then 2 weeks later they were doing 240mph on a super speedway!

    Tony George created the IRL because he thought that the INDY 500 was bigger than the sport of American open wheel racing. He is greedy. CART kind of destroyed itself, but without the IRL split it's internal wounds probably could have been mended.
     
  14. F129b

    F129b Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2004
    478
    oc, calif.
    Full Name:
    Robert
    BTW, 2 years ago when F1 and CART both raced at Montreal, CART's fastest lap was 5.5 secs slower than Schumacher's fastest race lap.
     
  15. Prova7

    Prova7 Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2003
    254
    Dallas, TX
    Full Name:
    DamonB
    I'm (was) a huge CART fan. Now I'm a racing fan without a series :(

    Favorite CART moment: Moreno winning Cleveland from the pole in 2000. Some people still remember WHY they show up and drive.

    Worst CART moment: Seeing on televison a young man I had recently met, Greg Moore, lose his life.

    Other favorites: Meeting Rahal; class act. Meeting Moreno, Papis and Franchitti; all wonderful. Almost getting running over in the paddock when Montoya screamed by in his scooter. Just as I recovered his gf almost ran over me. Had a brief conversation with Kenny Brack while using adjacent urinals; he was in his drivers suit and we both laughed when I asked if we could take pics in the men's room.

    As much as I love Zanardi I will never believe that "The Pass" on Herta in the corkscrew was a legal move; Alex didn't deserve the win. You cannot leave the track and gain a position. The pass was made in the dirt, not on the track.

    ...and I will hate George forever :D
     
  16. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    74,136
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    You don't accept OWRS as the heir to CART??????? Why not?????

    I like Paul Gentilozzi, he always has a great sound bite and aside from that knows racing from both side of the windshield!
     
  17. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    74,136
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Dislaimer: Long time fan of both AJ and Mario, just don't see 'em at the same parties!!!

    I disagree (respectfully) with one statement. I think Tony Geroge was afraid of having Roger Penske's signature on his paycheck! At the time tracks were being built and aligned with major corporations in NASCAR, and Tony only has the IMS, as his only asset. A family owned firm but no match for the France family juggernaut.

    AJ was behind him, due to costs spiraling out of control against avaliable sponsorship dollars (darn, that sounds familiar... Bernie E.????) and AJ never liked the engine leasing associated with the program, preferring to build and burn his own.

    At the end of the day you had Tony/AJ on one side of the fence, and Roger/Mario et al on the other. CART of course blew it with the engine guys by waffling on the specs for the future, and that one bobble (which lasted six to eight months in the air IIRC) cost them the farm.

    The public at large NEVER understood the split, and both sides ended up with a piece of pie, spilt in half, leaving a half slice each.
     
  18. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    74,136
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    I was with Mario last weekend on pole day, and naturally he took a major interest in how Andretti/Green cars were doing.

    I didn't broach the subject of his opinion of the IRL cars, not wanting to spoil a most lovely afternoon of wine tasting in Napa Valley!! I just was glad his "flight" did not end in tragedy!

    I did overhear a comment (not towards me), that reflected his love of being behind the wheel as opposed to watching from the sidelines!

    Once a champion, always a champion.

    I hold the same high regard for Mr. A.J. Foyt, Jr.

    Good luck to Anthony this weekend. And to the A/G team as well.
     
  19. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    74,136
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    CART, in addition to blowing it's foot off with the engine debacle, also was guilty of selling it's soul to the devil (read Wall Street) went it went with a IPO.

    All the original board (read team owners) got rich with this, Penske, Rahal, and others, but like many businesses, were actually ill suited to the "continued growth, continued profit increases" of the investor mentality.

    Instead of growing, they stagnated or even lost market share to IRL and NASCAR, and it took onoly the flight of the engine suppliers to sink the ship below the waves.

    The last effort to save it was the "buy back" of the public stock, which like so many here in the US, had by then slid into the dumper, destroying the investor's equity.

    If they hadn't pissed off Honda with th Booost valve ruling, who knows??


    Hey, who's in front at Indy 500 this weekend???? Anybody know???
    Hand's up?????? Uhhhh, Chevy?? Cosworth??? Anyone???
     
  20. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    74,136
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Darn, it seems to be some Japanese guys!!!!!!
     
  21. black&tan328

    black&tan328 Rookie

    May 13, 2004
    31
    My sentiments exactly. Plus, CART aka Champ Cars is doing itself no good at all with the wierd TV schedule it has. I live in L.A., and although the Monterrey Race was listed in the L.A.Times to be shown at 4pm on Spike TV, its absolute antithesis, Pro Wrestling was on. I was p*ss*d.
    BTW, Champ Cars would be a lot closer to F1 lap times if they were allowed to have carbon brakes. There was even a suggestion recently that F1 cars should be made to have steel brakes in order to increase braking distances and with them, passing opportunities. It would even save the teams a few grand a year each.
    Although I have been a diehard F1 fan for years, I think that Bernie, Max and company are forgetting that F1 is Show Business and millions of fans will drift away if the show isn't exciting to watch. Even I now watch the 6pm repeat instead of the 4:30am original. As much as I admire what MS and Scuderia Ferrari have achieved lately I believe that JPM might have done the 2004 F1 season a big favour last weekend.
    BTW, I NEVER watch IRL events. If I ever want to watch clowns running in circles, I'll go to Barnum and Bailey's. :)
     
  22. Prova7

    Prova7 Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2003
    254
    Dallas, TX
    Full Name:
    DamonB
    I wholeheartedly hope Gentilozzi succeeds, I highly respect him.

    What I cannot say is that right now CART has not gone through a death spiral, its TV package doesn't suck, it's spec engine package doesn't suck, it hasn't lost some of its best tracks, it's biggest and brightest didn't all go IRL racing because CART was in shambles, there are not already "gimmicky" rules creeping in (the push to pass button that's good for so many seconds during a race and the idea of having one extra sticky set of tires you can use during the race), there are is no technology battle other than amongst a few chassis manufacturers as all the engine guys are gone, etc. I'm a huge fan but I don't believe CART is out of the woods. Just having a series that still exists does not count as success for me. Until CART once again attracts top teams and has competition amongst different engine manufacturers in different chassis you do not have the real CART in my opinion. If I wanted to watch a series with dumbed down rules that change on a weekly basis to create artificial competition I'd watch NASCAR.

    CART suffered a heart attack, a stroke, a hemorrage and then went brain dead. The patient is still alive but is on life support. Will the patient ever rise again from the table? If he does will he be as strong as before? If he is as strong as before will anyone still care? If the IRL goes road racing (which is slated to happen 2005) and then begins competing on all the old CART tracks with all the old CART teams and all the different engine and chassis manufacturer support we have to ask ourselves at that point which series is more true to the original CART ideas of open wheel racing on different types of circuits?
     
  23. writerguy

    writerguy F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2003
    6,786
    NewRotic
    Full Name:
    Otto
    #20 writerguy, May 27, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have had a number of talks with some well known and knowing people lately

    Johnny Rutherford - IRL pace car driver former Indy 500 multiple winner is on side of IRL in a big way he said that before the split "In CART the inmates were running the asylum"

    Pat Patrick - Just returned to IRL so his drivers can race the Indy is there but his heart is still on road and oval

    Jim Hall - Saddened by what used to be his playground (original partner in CART and multiple INDY team winner etc)

    Carl Hass - Sticking with CART (OWERS)

    Phil Hill - Former World Driving Champ - Maddened and upset at the destruction from within in open wheel racing in the USA

    Dan Gurney - same as others

    There were some of these sitting in the bar in Midland during the opening of the Chaparral Gallery of Jim Hall's cars and we were watching the IRL race from Japan. Most agreed that when Toyota goes NASCAR the IRL is screwed they all still love the notion of INDY 500 but all agreed that neither series is half of what the old one was.

    it was pretty cool non the less sitting there with them

    None were lost on the Irony of "An american oval racing series dedicated to American tracks and american drivers" racing in Japan with Honda and Toyota motors and the word that they are looking at Road Tracks in the near future.... nor the fact the top drivers are from scotland Brazil and Mexico..... and Canada... and a couple from the US

    For AJ Foyt ... Carroll Shelby called him "I J" because there is no "I" in TEAM.
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  24. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    74,136
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    ROTFLMAO, OK! Ol' Shel' gets one in on AJ! LOL!

    That's pretty good, and admittedly he DOES shoulder a lot more of the load than, say the Penske or Newman Haas type teams.

    But having watched him thru the years, he repeatedly does more with less to an amazing degree, and has a barn of those big Indy checks on the wall to prove it.

    I don't think son Larry Foyt's car shows much sponsorship on it, and Lord knows Conseco has been in a stock slide since the CFO walked into a helicopter rotor blade still spinning some years ago.

    Yet AJ is there, with two cars plus an extra car to offer Lazier in practice, and Tony Stewart on Bump Day. That second orange car tells you that Coyote Enterprises is paying the bills.

    I'll never forget Scott Sharp's Autoweek comments on the subject, to paraphrase, he said. "Of course, AJ gets mad when his crew with the laptops runs the car out of gas on the track, he's paying for everything!"
     
  25. DMC

    DMC Formula 3

    Nov 15, 2002
    2,360
    WI/IL
    Full Name:
    Dean
    Writerguy, great pic. Excellent comments from all.

    I remain a Champ Car fan, realizing that it will take more than a year to rebuild the series. Once IRL loses its Yen infusion, it will be over for them. I can't believe anyone would show up to watch those on a road course. Junquiera was quoted this past weekend as thinking that the gearbox of an IRL car is nowhere near being developed for a road course, and he thinks they would be about 10 seconds (!)slower compared to a Champ Car on the same track.

    Open wheel NASCAR oval racing just doesn't do it for me. I go to the Milwaukee Mile every year because it's in my back yard and there has been some good racing there (when they were running road course spec wings), but I've always preferred road courses.

    Indy used to be exciting for me. It kills me to buy tickets for the USGP knowing that it puts money into Tony George's pocket.

    Past CART management is as much to blame, but all (or nearly all) of those people are gone.

    It's really a shame that all the momentum that CART had in the 90's was just pissed away.
     
  26. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    74,136
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    See what you started Stevej???!!!! LOL!

    It's kinda like a good marraige got a divorce, with all the hard feelings, and the neighbors clucking that they were really made for each other, despite all the squabbling, and will never find anyone better!

    IRL was low tech, but now raising the bar. They had to, they were killing people.

    CART was high tech but couldn't keep abreast of the technology with the rulebook, and now survives as a shadow of what could have been.

    In the meantime a lot of disgusted, loyal fans, wandered away to watch Professional Bass Fishing, or something.
     
  27. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    74,136
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    I hear ya, bro. The Texaco GP Houston threw some kickin' parties, but you could feel the momentum draining away, in the final years.

    A lot of good folks were hurt by the bone headedness of a few.
     
  28. writerguy

    writerguy F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2003
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    #25 writerguy, May 28, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Speaking of Larry Foyt

    This kid has a FACE for sponsors Roumer has it the only thing that keeps him from really picking up the biggies is AJ and his, ahem, bullheaded way of doing things. (Sponsor/Love/Hate)
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