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C8 Z06

Discussion in 'American Muscle' started by sainthoo, Jun 10, 2020.

  1. BJK

    BJK F1 Rookie

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    You need to find the cost / fun balance. :)
    There's always something faster. ($$$$)

    A wise man once said: It's more fun to go fast (9/10ths) in a 'slow' car, than it is to go 'slow' (7/10ths) in a fast car. :D

    .
     
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  3. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Or as an old Ducati racer said to me

    Its not just how fast you go, but how you go fast that counts.
     
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  4. JV's89

    JV's89 F1 Rookie
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    I'm in a Praga in my avatar.

    I bet it cornered better than your Praga. :D
     
  5. jimmyb

    jimmyb Formula 3

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    ^^^
    Yeah, but Sean's dad can beat up your dad, so there's that.;)
     
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  6. JV's89

    JV's89 F1 Rookie
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    I know my post was kind of juvenile, but at the same time, how many people have even heard of Praga?
    As far as I know, they’re the only company that builds cars as well as karts.
    Small fraternity.
     
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  8. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    To me you were saying, nothing can corner as hard as a cart which is true. A fast cart will probably out acclerate a car up to 80 also.
     
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  9. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Back to our regular program.
    Seems the Cayman GT4 Rs spec is going to be something aroumd 500hp, my bet is 480 cause the Gt3 is 500. 130k base price and 3000lbs. Thats the car thats the closest competitor to the c8 z06 although they are very different machines.
     
  10. Jo Sta7

    Jo Sta7 F1 Rookie
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    Im glad you finished by saying they’re very different. I just can’t see them being cross shopped. The Z06 is going to be a unique beast in the market next year.
     
  11. jimmyb

    jimmyb Formula 3

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    #234 jimmyb, Jul 23, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
    Gotta love Porsche...a $130K Cayman...that takes NERVE. Add ANY options (wouldn't be a Porsche without color seat belts, etc) and you end up with a $150K (or more) Cayman...
    The Porsche faithful will buy it, I guess. It will be no competitor for the C8 Z06 in any shape, form, or fashion.

    PS. What am I talking about...the regular Cayman GT4 is $101,200...you can buy a Stingray Z51 for $30K + less... and IT'S faster around any track.
     
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  13. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Lots of z51s showing up at trackdays now. Cupholders, golf clubs, fishing gear and a trackday. No better weekend. I'm doing that now racing at laguna and fly-fishing carmel beach but with a z51 streetcar no trailer and you can park and dine on ocean ave.
     
  14. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Love to hear some real world feedback and experience witht he c8 on track. I remember you didnt love the mustang amd at it took to try make it work ontrack.

    Due to the evolution of life I am seriously looking for a "great" drive to the track car. The truck and trailer are requiring time and effort I dont always have to give and that is ironicaly limiting track time. Naturaly spending 100k is better than spending 200+k. the elise is already a road/track car and last e year I used it a few times to drive to local small tracks in lieu of loading up the exige etcy, as much as a dediceted track car appeals, drivign to the track on any given day has its fun factor due to ease of use. Plus I'm finding the 888rs last and the grip is more than decent. The elise will stay for small tracks so looking for something with some go for bigger tracks that is still lithe and fun on track and weekend fun on street. Thinking everything from a emira to zo6 to Gt4rs to Gt3 to MC20, but durability and consumables are more important than purchase price.

    I can upgrading rotors and brake lines/pads and regular fluid changes but beyond that it should be turnkey reliable and able to run on pump gas. Ill keep an extra set of wheels with the barely legal track tires to swap on beofre going tot he track.

    Im wondering is such an animal exists
     
  15. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    A z51 might compete with a cayman s 4.0. As others have said theyre different anuimals though, so it all depends on intended use and roads available.
    For more serious track work the porche is already a known quantity in terms of durability and consumables, plus if prior vettes are an example the p car is better engienred for the track enviroment. None of which is to say that a C8 z06 might not be a game changer. We shall soon see.

    A Gt4 Rs may cost 150k toa z06s 125k. One can easily spend +25k on car urgrading it to real track spec if its missing key bits for track use, the Pcar like the ones before will work out the box, .
     
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  16. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Sean,

    I think the c8 is it but not sure on the final flavor. I started track days with streetcar and ended up racing all over the country so you can imagine those logistics and costs. Believe me when I say the car is the cheapest part! One day when I’m old enough I’ll go back to track days and an arrive and drive streetcar. Today the c8 looks like it. It has every advantage even the gt3 does not. But IMO the gt3 is the only track ready streetcar. I’m not convinced the gt4 is that good. But Porsche’s break on me so those are out. They are not reliable or have the gm parts chain or the stupid simple gm service anywhere in the USA. The dct is massed produced in the c8 and reliability will soar. BMW does not have that nor does Porsche. Too many m3 4s have been sidelined on track from dct failure and the Porsche trackguys still want 3 pedals. 3 pedals is a hard NO for any street duty and remember this is a trackcar for when I’m old and done with trucks trailers and crew chiefs.
     
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  17. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Agreed the gt3 is the only track ready streetcar. There is a question mark as to how much tracking it can sustain and at what cost.
    Yes the car is the cheapest part however you look at it. A drive to the track street car is very much also about consumables and reliability, to go with "performance" and imo stiffness on track. I hate the softnes and concurrent lack of precsion most "track" streetcars have on track. The Alfa 4c was a big surprise as t was a s close to a honed track car in feel as any street car Ive ever driven.

    BMWs are simply too heavy and too soft to be taken seriously.

    Still I think a street driven track car should be possible, not least because tire tech is now so good. Years ago on the elise I was running 048Rs which in the end didnt last and went off the boil pretty quckly. Fast forwards 8 years and I decided to track the elsie again for fun and to get my pre season flow in. 888Rs this time, last 4-5 days and while the grip is not the same as yoko slicks, its not bad at all and the tires dont go off the boil as so many R compunds do aftetr 3 laps, in fact they stayed consistent all day and the drop off over time was gradual, eventualy there was no tires left. Maybe thats a light car too, but tire tech has clearly moved on.

    So if we have tires that work, brakes that last(depending on weight and rotor size pads etc) we know there are any number of motors that can last if they have the oiling for track. its justa function of light enough and lithe enough car with reliable oem components.

    As for 3 pedals, i enjoy those on the street for engagment/fun , but my next track car will def be two pedal. One other criteria, if you have a street car that works on track, how much fun is it on street and where does one put the priorty. Frankly modern sedans like the Gulia are so good for most situations they cover most of the street bases for me. Which means my street/track car can be more track biased in terms of ride comfort etc provided it works on a sunday drive too.

    What we need then is something like a reliable durable 360Cs. The z06 or Gt4rs seems like the best possibility, the vette may with suitable mods be durable and inexpesive enough to work but sound llike 500lbs of extra lard, and the proche may just be really expesive and to your poitn not relaible enough to work. Ive had really good luck with lotus, maybe the lotus emira once someone figures out how to get the power out of it, cause imo a 3000lbs street based car needs close on 500hp these days to really hunt given the other limtations a street legal car on road tires brings. One would be amazed how good springs and something like Ohlins TTx shocks transform both ride and handling. I guess most manufacturers are not going to put 5-10k worth of shocks on car, but thats ok to do later provided the rest is there.

    I guess writing this made me realize that if the emira comes with suitable Ap brakes, and one can really amp up that 4cyl amg motor to 485 hp, the changing the other bits like sump springs and shocks might get me close to the ideal, assuming the vette is just too heavy, but we'll see.
     
  18. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Sean,

    Even in my racecar reliability is most important. I want to finish races and nothing to break especially things that could cause a crash. Cooling mods like larger oil coolers are pretty bullet proof. Coolers are the downfall of all streetcars on track except the gt3. Once you start adding power the once engineered package goes right out the window. Adding power kills reliability. You also do not want to have to deal with the smog guy and you want to be able to take your car to the local chevy dealer in a pinch. I remember I was racing my C5Z06 at Daytona from California and some sensor was messing up my car. I went to the local dealer a couple miles from the track and bought the sensor at the parts counter and installed it. Diagnosis to fixed in about 1 hour! Try doing that Friday afternoon with a lotus. Maybe you could do that with a porsche but I doubt it. This is where the C8 will shine. You can drive your C8 from Cali to Nation corvette museum motorsports park for a track weekend, run the trackdays on 200TWR tires, continue your vacation with A/C that works, golf clubs and fishing gear in the rear boot. Your dealer network is nationwide but 90% chance you don't even need them.
     
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  19. jimmyb

    jimmyb Formula 3

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    #241 jimmyb, Jul 25, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
    It's not a "might". The C8 Stingray Z51 is just a faster car on track than a Cayman GT4. It just is. And I'll go out on the larger limb and say that the Cayman GT4RS will not stand a chance against a C8 Z06. It won't be close, IMO.

    PS. Once you start modding the car (Any car), for me, all bet's are off. We're talking the car's abilities straight OFF the showroom floor.
    This talk of "if you this and that to car X, it will be faster than car Y" is just silly. If car Y is faster than car X, both being box stock, than spending whatever EQUAL amounts on both cars still ends up with car Y still being faster.
     
  20. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #242 boxerman, Jul 25, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021

    Moding by me does not necessarily mean power upgrades, it just means the things that need to be done to a car so it can survive on track. For example prior vettes melted their brake lines so the obvious mod was braided lines which one wonders why the factory didnt provide, thats pretty basic and woudl have come up in testing.. No car on track runs stock pads, and pretty much no one runs ceramic rotors, so if a car comes with one you take them off and keep for resale time. Some cars have wetsump suytems and so the oil pan needs changign to work on track, c8s are I belive drysump so tis not an issue there. But all cars need somehtign, some a lot more than oters, and some that claim to be track capable are mising basic bits that makes you wonder, often things that woudl have costa few dollars to do right, like rad hose clamps on Gt3's which blew..

    now power that can be moded with a simple remap or headers is very different to somehting needign mechanical bits. Remaps to me mean removing emissions or noise compromsies. Remaping an amg 4cyl to 485 hp when the factory already makes versions that are clsoe to that is fine, its not a big expese nor does it meaningfully affect durability or affetc beign turn key, which is the object. the cars thta gan big hp with aremap are turbo cras fro obvious reasons. NA cars with acold air intake and headers gain some Hp but porbbaly expand the power range signficantly which is more important. Like brake rotors and pads these are things you simply do to a car if youre going to track it. Its not somehtign I woud do to a maclaren, cause those have too much hp FOR TRACK already.


    A stock C8 z51 may be faster than a Gt4 for a few laps, (its certainly quicker 0-60 by far) and that also depends on the track in question. Its simply not faster for multiple laps all day, for one thing the c8 has horrid understeer and another its weight means its tires cant maintain full chat for 20 laps Off the showroom floor a C8 is simply not fantastic on track, its way better I hear if you align it in such a way that there us yuge negatve camber butt then does not work on street, which Btw others cars do not need to work on track. Thats just the way the c8 platform is setup now, the z06 might be very different.

    As always you and I have very different definitions of what it means to run on track..Im not talking tourist laps for a couple of days per year here or there. As others have written in this thread, they eventualy gave up trying to make their prior gen stock vettes work on track, gave up after spending 100k on the car to try make it work, thats not a unique experience once you start really pushing it. I have no idea, nor do you, if the same applies to a C8, theyre too new and untried to have meaningful data in this regard. I dont even expect the current c8 to be great on track, its intended to be a Gt car, and its a great Gt car maybe the best you can buy. We'll reserve judgment untill the z06 comes along. Quite possible that Gm put all the good bits in not only to make it go fast, but also to make is last going fast, or maybe its still GM and they skimped in some critical areas. if those areas are not too significant those are mods any owner would do. Im trying to think of a car that needs nothing done out the box to work on track, and GT3 Gt4 come closest, followed by an elige.
     
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  21. sainthoo

    sainthoo Formula 3
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    #243 sainthoo, Jul 25, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
    Eh, I think you need to reassess your opinion. My C8 (Z51 with factory settings) on crappy PS4s was lapping within a couple seconds of GT4 club sports on slicks on VIR South course which has 2 punishing off camber turns that are worst case scenario for the C8. On VIR full, C8 would have been closer, maybe faster. On Goodyears, even closer.
    Zero issues with street driving on factory set up.
    Edit: I should have mentioned - these laps were completed after One Lap of America (5000+ miles, etc). Never changed a thing, just drove to the track to thrash the crap out of the tires that I was going to dispose of.

     
  22. jimmyb

    jimmyb Formula 3

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    #244 jimmyb, Jul 25, 2021
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    ^^^
    And as always you are saying things that are your "opinion" based on your obsession with weight. FatBillyBob has spoken of the C8 Z51's track capability, based on HIS real world tracking of a C8. And what HE says contradicts what you say.
    And I am not talking about "tourist" laps (I mean, come on...we all know the difference between "parade laps" and tracking.) The "melted brake lines" is NOT something complained about on corvette specific sites by guys who track their cars.
    I own a C8, and I'll assure you it does NOT have "horrid understeer"... that's just an overly dramatic and completely false statement.

    Have your opinion, that's what makes the world go 'round.
    But when you say the C8 Z51 is NOT faster than a GT4 after a few laps, when you have ZERO evidence to prove it, well...:rolleyes:
     
  23. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Thank you, Im happy to hear the actual realtime feedback. Club sports are fast.

    Could you write a track report and imrpressions of the car, maybe some compros to other cars youve driven on track, it would be really inetresting to read, and yes learn from.

    How many secs differences would you say there was the the Cs on slicks.
    What time did you run.
     
  24. sainthoo

    sainthoo Formula 3
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    #246 sainthoo, Jul 25, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
    On track, street cars: Evora, several M3s, 570S, 600LT, GT4, GT3RS (997.2), C8, Chrysler Town and Country (loaded with 3 adults and 3 kids!). Race cars: Spec E30, Spec E36, BMWCCA IP class, Spec E46, M240racing, 360 Challemge, Spec Race Atom, Ginetta. Might have missed something

    The C8 is a monster on throttle, exiting corner. It is sharp on turn in (surprisingly so). The challenge is managing transition to apex and track out- you can find understeer or oversteer. But, if someone has trouble driving a C8 “fast,” it isn’t the car.

    It does not have the steering feel of a Lotus or McLaren - nothing does. But, it is as good as most any modern car in that respect (RIP hydraulic assist or God forbid no power assist).

    Easy as hell to drive. Just put it in track mode, turn off traction control, stability control and let the car shift for you. Embarrassing, but seriously, no point shifting as it is literally never in the wrong gear under any scenario. Seems impossible, I know.

    Absolutely fun as can be.

    Down side- it weighs too much. It is going to ultimately eat more tires. and brakes than it otherwise could. But, plenty of tire and brake for a track weekend. I did put on KNS brakes with ******** pads. It is a bit “Chevy” in the ultimate fit/finish- but, Chevy parts/maintenance costs and convenience are a massive bonus.

    End of day, it’s awesome. Having said that, I’m going to let it go, think I want an Emira for my street GT (miss a manual). I plan to build a Caterham, if it ever gets here, and I will drive my Ginetta, should arrive soon, and other race cars on track (I have a space at VIR). I will absolutely get a Z06, and I cannot help but wonder, what in the world is that thing going to be capable of???

    Never had a C8 on slicks, no one I know has bothered to do that either. Should be worth several seconds?

    edit: no idea why it filters “Giro disc” when it is one word, but eh, whatever.
     
  25. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Thank you.

    Sounds like a z06 might then be the thing, and there i was planning an extra 80K for a Gt3, which ill happily spend on a lister bell stratos or a hellcat.

    Loved the town and country part. Reminded me of first day of skippy school where we couldnt keep up with the neon in single seaters, drivers make a huge difference.

    Will be intersting to hear your impression of the emira, thats a car that seems to have garnered a lot of attention.
     
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  26. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Thought about this post quite a bit last night. my takeaway is its a very obectively capable car as are some other moderns, Maclaren comes to mind. No need to even shift makes sense.
    Then youre going emira and catherham. the old line its not just how fast you go but also how you go fast that counts.It will be inetresting to see how the z06 comes out, yeah weight, but the cost savings could buy a lot of tires and pads. If the mtoor is as good as it sounds that could add an important subjective dimension, along with maybe a better steering algorithem, thats what porche has honed on the Gt3, engine and steering, its what makes it far more apopealing for some of us than the objectively faster turbo.

    its the swansong of the oem ice cars and theyre going out on a peak. Whichevr one I buy now its with an eye on it being a keeper, cause once theyre gone thats it.
    3d printing and the component car industry will be giving us lots of inetresting stuff for years to come, but thats another subject.
     
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  27. sainthoo

    sainthoo Formula 3
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    Speculation about magnesium transmission case (weight savings) and magneto-rheological engine mounts (damping and tire contact control).

    Not sure what comes to fruition, but I like the sound of it- GM is not playing around, if either is true.

    A Z06 at 3300-3400 pounds would be awesome (don’t think they get there, and I wish it was even less).
     
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  28. VAF84

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    I got a chance to take the family to the Corvette Museum yesterday; we had a good time! Finally had a chance to really take a good long look at the car in person (in between chasing the kids, lol). It's unfortunate that in some angles it's not photogenic, but it's such a great looking car in person. Anyway, got me more excited about the Z06. I plan to do the track experience with the C8 before we move out of KY; really keen to drive it back to back with my F430 which I brought with me. On a side note, I bought some raffle tickets to try and win a C8 while at the museum (1 in 1500 odds if they sell them all), so who knows maybe I'll be able to own both :D.
     

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