C8 Z06

Thank you for the feedback.

Im paying around $350 per corner for (nitrogen dipped then heat treated, milled true) iron rotors on my lotus. That does not include mounting them to the hats with bobbins for float etc. If I buy them mounted on new hats titanium bobbins etc its more like $2200 per set of 4. The last set lasted around 50-60 days. Pads are 6 days more or less. Vette guys seem to be paying $200 per corner for new rotors on c7s, dont know if theyre floating.

Curious the z07 package is a 10k uplift, (+ another 10K for the aero) its different programming on the shocks and stiffer springs which is zero cost over stock z06 plus the ceramics, which implies most if not all the upcharge is the ceramics. Could they be 2k+ per corner? Wonder what replacement cost would be and durability vs aftermarket irons.

I know the early 991 Gt3s had engine issues, which porche replaced, but 3 sounds like some other issue.

Funny if I blow the v6 on the exige, a new short block from Toyota is 5k, Hardley ,makes them worth rebuilding, unless you're adding stronger bits for more boost, in which case 5-600hp is on tap, but the transmission seems to have a reliability limit past 460 hp unless you bring in separate cooling,(stock motor good at 460 also) 460 on a 2300lbs car seems like more than plenty, even the 380 ish I'm running now is good, it never ends.

I dont know anyone who buys oem iron rotors, as you imply they're expensive and there are better less expensive options out there.
Its funny to me that the Gt4 and for that Matter lotus come with drilled rotors, thats a joke in and of itself for a serious track car.

 

CCB's aren't significantly better performing than top of the line iron rotors, and the higher-end steel big brake kits never overheat. I had the latest steel AP Racing kit on my last car and we were actually worried about too much cooling and not keeping them up to optimal running temps.

Buying CCB's for untimed track days makes zero sense. The only reason to get CCB's is on a street car for less brake dust. Only a paid professional race car driver that can get 99.9999% out of their car is going to benefit from a few pounds of unsprung weight reduction. It's the equivalent of some fat guy paying someone $3,000 dollars to shave his legs because it makes him faster when he rides his Schwinn bicycle at the local fun run/fox trot.

SMH! It's just ridiculous.

 

i wonder what the lap time sofifreence is to iron rotors. Reducing unsprung mass is always good but as with cf wheels there can be a massive up charge and Gur ability question.
On street it’s bling and less brake dust.

as others have said more eloquently Ferraris are first and foremost road cars and not really as good as others on track at all. So we see high end cars are mostky bought for road use and how the driver feels. Knowing the equipment roster, what it’s imagined to be derived from and soem obkwctive testing numbers fill out the equation.

it does seem that in the case of the c8 z06 chev has really built a car that can also hack it on track. Kudos to them none of the exotic Italians except maybe the sto can make the same claim.

Where the c8 z06 sits on the obkwctive and subjective y track pecking order remains to be seen, as well as banishing ghosts past for things like meaty brake lines blown bits etc.

There are at this level only two or there contenders, the Vette appears to be one of them and they’re all good. We can also speculate that if western civilization continues over the years this car will also be improved, there is a lot more potential in this package.

You’re still
Spending 150k with gm/chev so if you’re going
To track prob best to find d a good independent shop for anything other than warranty claims. But that can also be the same with a premium brand. Thers also some great car guy techs at some chev dealers but hats hit or miss.

let’s see, the car sounds great so far, but it’s early dais

 

CCBs are better. Whether you think it's significantly better is a matter of opinion.

As to using CCBs for untimed track days making zero sense based on cost, the same thing could be said for tracking a Ferrari or a Porsche. Makes zero sense considering you could track a Miata for 1/3 of the cost (if that). But we don't always make decisions based on cost alone. The experience plays a large part of it.

Just like tracking a Miata is different (maybe even "significantly" so) than tracking a Ferrari, so the same could be said for using CCBs versus irons. And I don't think anyone here would say tracking a Ferrari would make "zero sense" as you say.

 

Buy the Porsche. You said the car needs the Z07 package to preform on track (wrong) and referred in another post as the standard interior as “rent a car”

ignorant and incorrect. You’ll fit into a GT4RS like a glove. Have a Kleenex ready when the Z06 blows its doors off on the streets

 

I agree with respect to everyone is free to make their own decisions, it's just funny to hear people in the paddock talk about the increased performance from their CCB's and claim how much faster they are from the weight savings when I just followed them around track and they were a full car width off of every apex and braking 100ft before they should.

Again, buy what you want, but I've never seen someone that is an accomplished driver on track choose CCB's over iron/steel unless they were part of a racing series.

 

No car os "blowing anoter cars doors off on the streets. When was the last time you wet 185 on the street. Blowing doors off on street with afast modern car is ****** swinging contest and nothing more, any idiot can mash an accelerator, and often, too often we see the results.

ill clarify, to perform optimaly the z06 needs the z07 package on track. if youre going to the trcak why have the lesser handling capability?

As for rent a car, acres of plastic, thats rent a car no matter how great the pastic is. Given the expanses of the vette inetrior and its Gt car ethos it does need the better interior to feel good. Like all cars there are subjective factors. its so tiresome, C6-C7 people went apoplectic when you called the vette interior low rent, then the c8 comes out and the same clowns now say its great. As in politics, lets be honest. The C8 interior is decent, it needs thre upgraded bits to feel really good and in a 150k car thats kind important.

IMO the C8 like pretty much every other exotic high powered car has road Gt car focus. That includes pretty much every ferrari and nearly every porche. In the case of the C8 as with 911s thats somewhat more egregious, we can see that with the size of the car, the weight, the structure engineered with low sills and the two sets of golf clubs mandate. Nothing wrong with any of that Gm and others have a product to sell and need bandwidth of clients to survive. Fact is other than getting an occasional thrill though flooring it 99% of fast car buyers don't do more or remotely have the brain calibration and skills to do more. To even attempt to max out these vehicles on road is a form of suicide/gross irresponsibility (im not talking about an occasion high speed thrill. but really using the car).

Now int he case of the C8 it looks like the vette team did build in requisite stiffness and good suspension, so despite its size and weight it can be made to dance. they have now added the killer motor, the type of truly great powerplants which others used to make but abandoned in the quest for more hp which the road car poseurs demand. Every car is a compromise of factors from marketing to client base to price. The vette is first and foremost a road car for an older clientale. Doesent mean its bad, just a different set of compromises. Now those compromises May well be offset by the killer app of a motors, the layout and suspension.
Time and for that matter the track(those who use it hard there) will tell.

Imo its best not to think of the vette as a sportscar that can be tracked, to a certain extent that label does it an injustice. The z06 is more like a a supercar that can be tracked, in that regard its one of one. That may be truly compelling or size and weight may mitigate against its other attributes. one of the classic vette attributes was also price, but at 150-160k thats not really a factor.

yepo it may be the best thing since sliced bread, and yes maybe the standard z06 with some relatively simple aftermaket upgrades liek shocks and springs may be the kilelr app. We dont know yet. No one has seriously tracked one beyond a few impression laps.

My point is, a 4rs appears to come out the box fully focussed for the track purpose, the z06 does not, and the z07 upgrade clearly improves lap times but a price and requirement of options not necessarily all ideal for the purpose. Different clients and market focus.

To your regular z06 point, it will be great to see how one performs on say slicks, and what woudl need to be done to it, to really work on track. maybe a 110k car with 10k in upgrades for 120k makes the killer app, we don't know yet.

As with any sport habitual track guys are broadly three categories. those who go to some De events per year, or even 10-20(one guy in a Gt3Rs Im met this year) and like any sport can sorta learn to be competent enough not to be dangerous and gain some speed, but will never get anywhere near the potential of their car. these guys if theyre in some organization that promotes for sales will push and demand to be in the "advanced group", they're usually holding up traffic and creating trains.

then there are those with some talent who are quick and have some innate skill, lets call them quick amateurs, like a golf club member champion or pro..
Then there are those who are truly inspired, actual wining racers and some others with skill and practice. Their driving is on a whole other level.

possibly some small percentage in the second group can etract at their level of laptime the max a 4rs or z06 has to offer them.
the lastgroup, yeah the driver will deitmine the laptime between the two cars.
What the last two groups will favor also are the subjective experience of driving these cars, because any real track car will smoke them anyway.

the list of such street cars you can buy that truly work on track out the box is short.

mach 1 stang
Camaro
Gt4 and 4rs.
GT3 and 3Rs
Vette Z07 and Z07(based on spec and what we read so far)
Amg Black.

the rest are really pretenders, and need various degrees mods to work in any sustainable fashion. Although a M2 is not far off.

Where the vette sits in this pecking order no one knows yet, kudos to chev its on the list. Could be that a z07 sits next to a 4rs, or below or above and a regular z06 is between the zli1lt and the stang. To this list of criteria we can add purchase price and cost to run for a season. All these factors are relevant if you're really using the car, as well as the experience of the machine and totality of experience. Im assuming thse cars are also going to be sued for more than just driving to the track, which means a 3 Rs given its price, cost to run and extreme focus may not really be as useful, esp considering the skillset required to really utilize its abilities which may make those abilities moot.

ill bet in a few years there will be some great shocks and springs, great rotors, and maybe some aero that can be added to a regular z06 that puts it high enough up the track ability order that its possibly the choice(and like other z06s there will be plenty of used ones for younger folks to suitably track modify as the boomer first owners time out over the decade). Don't know and nor does anyone else what the stock z06 modified reasonably is all about.

We can comment though on what we know so far(limited as it is), and the spec offered by Gm. From what I see and hear the z06 variants first and foremost, like every ferrari, the Mc20, Pagani and others is a road car to drive to the golf culb and out to dinner, that can hack it on track. The expensive upgrade options while improving performance on track, are really more for the road buyer than best practice, makes sense given the buyer pool with 150k to spend.

 

Agreed. By the same token the "market" demands big wheels which add unsprung mass to most cars and are less than ideal for track, but there they are.
CF wheels clearly improve things, but if you change tires every 3 days or less(a track routine), theyre not really a great choice, and lightweight track wheels are close to or as light.

the benefit of CCBs on road is brake dust, there is no discernable benefit, other than may don't stop as consistently, yet nearly every lambo and all ferraris have them, which says much about customer and manufacturer motivation.

Ah calibration, this drives the heart of the matter. if you want the stiffer springs shocks and better aero, youre forced into CCBs.

Some datta from corvette forum which maybe puts this into perspective for a track guy.(note this is ac7 so c8 numbers may vary).

"Per my USPS-approved scale, regular Z06 rotors are 23.8 lbs front, 24.8 lbs rear. The rears are heavier despite smaller rotors, since they have an iron hat for the hand brake.

I used Girodisc 2-piece rotors to drop the weights, switch to much lighter aluminum hat at the rear, and most importantly, to have directional rotors up front for much better ventilation. Girodisc fronts are 21.9 lbs, rears are 16.7 lbs, which is, yes, even lighter than carbon ceramic rears : P

FYI, CCB calipers are also usually about 1 lbs heavier due to larger size."

 

I think many marques put on CCBs as standard equipment for weight reduction and less for performance.

Hard to market a performance vehicle weighing nearly 2 tons. CCBs won't drastically reduce weight, but it will help. Too bad standard weight specs don't account for unsprung weight.

 

I think like cosmetic Cf its about bling and $. Cf and CCBs seem to confer to a vehicle some type of derived from racing cred. Nothing wrong with that, but making it mandatory is an issue. When the 458 first came out, iron rotors were standard and the ceramics a 25 or 30k option, next year there was no iron option. Its about the benjamins, and ferrari knew demand was such they could get away with it.

If your product is way over ordered and you have production constraints the way to earn more is expensive options more than increased production. i don't blame chevy for taking this route, given the orders at hand, but it does mean the vette is no longer a value play, so it needs to stand on the rest, like build, service and real performance. Compared to the pcars where is the build quality, i don't know, the service is dealer dependent, same with porche, but there is a vast community of independent shops who are really good with porche including the latest models. performance, the z06 is the supercar on track, so sorta in a different niche.

With the advent of the z06 will audi sell any r8s?

When I was a kid we played car game called top trumps, where you won with cars that had the greater spec, seems that what motivates many buyers these days too. Ferrari wins cause its got 800hp or something. but thats a very narrow definition of little real impact. I put CCbs on car in the same category.

 

Please. I don't "go nuts" over anything some person I don't know and never will says on the internet. As far as base C8 interior to base 718 interior, you're entitled to your opinion, I disagree as I find all of the C8 materials to be very nice, where a base 718 interior has got it's share of cheap hard plastics. A good example is the door panels on a 718 verses the door panels on a C8.

Please note that the "pcar comes with all the good stuff" because the GT4RS is one of six Cayman models offered.
In terms of base MSRP verses base MSRP, we should be comparing the Z06 to the GT4, not the GT4RS. But, even equipping the Z06 with all the track stuff, which is already in the price of the GT4RS (Z07 package, CCB's, CF wheels, Comp seats) but no "fake CF" (note on a C8, if it LOOKS like CF, it IS CF, and NOT an overlay), the Z06 is still $10K cheaper than a base GT4RS and will no doubt mop the floor with it in literally any subjective/objective test you care to name.

 

In that case, no offense to the guys who have no clue what OEM CCB rotors cost for a Corvette. $1,300 per corner. Easily verifiable. $5,200 per set...a far cry from $10K being claimed.

 

Can you confirm that number for extra CCB's for the new C8 ZO6? I would be shocked if a new CCB rotor was $1,300, especially with hats.

 

well see as I’m getting the z06 and every track vid I see makes me more psyched.
I like competition it improves the product and both these cars are natural competitors. porche sales reminds me of the bad old days at Ferrari which is an epic turn off in and of itself. On the plus side there is a large and active porche track coMunity with massive aftermarket and knowledge base for that environment.

Two big pluses on the Vette for me, it’s going to work on road really well and it’s so different to my lotus that it makes sense to have both, whereas the porche less a road car in the Florida context and splits the difference in terms of size between the lotus and vette.

currently the exige v6 is my big track car and the Elise small track car. Maybe the Vette will become the big track car or maybe I’ll develop the exige further to slay all comers, hard to say, it takes years to really bond with a car. The appeal of Vette or gt4 is drive to the track on occasion, we’ll see nice issues to ponder.

on interior it’s no so much about base materials as the experience. The porche is a more minimalist machine and can get away better with some hard plastics, the race car motif if you will. On the Vette it’s more gt suoercar and there is a lot more panel real estate in its interior, that makes base plastics feel rent a car and the difference from base to upscale is vast, more so if this is primarily a rad car.

as o said these are two different machines with different compromises and depending on age, stage in life and intended use one may prefer one over the other.

If it wre going to be a car for ct backroads I would t even consider the vette
For Florida and big tracks it may be a better choice.
That we’re even having this discussion says much about how chev has moved their game on

 

I cannot, as the C8 Z06 is just now starting production.

Here is the price for C7 ZR1 CC rotors, I can't imagine the C8's are going to be much more (if any) than this. Make that $1,106.35 WITH hats.
Amazon.com: GM Genuine Parts 177-1120 Front Disc Brake Rotor : Automotive

 

As some have mentioned here and I realized when I owned a 2019 ZR1, CCB's are great for no brake dust. I didn't track the car so that makes me a poser but it was a fun car.

 

I guess you're shocked then.
This why you should look before throwing out a number...Chevrolet parts are NOT priced like Porsche/Ferrari/McLaren/etc parts, even though they're all Brembo for the most part.

 

Nope, you're not a "poser".
I would offer that the number of guys that actually track their cars verses the number of guys on the internet that SAY they track their cars is not remotely the SAME number.

 

Yeah, I am shocked but I never entertained the idea of running CCB's on my C6 ZO6. They were on both of my mother cars (991.2 GT3 and Ferrari Scuderia) so I took them off before I tracked them. The AP Racing big brake kit was actually lighter than the PCCB's on my Porsche and had better cooling. Pads lasted longer as well and everything on the AP kit was a fraction of the cost of the OEM PCCB's.

Again, I've never seen an accomplished driver that wasn't part of a racing series or a paid racing driver choose to run carbon over steel/iron. The math still doesn't work and only a tiny fraction of drivers are good enough where they make a bit of difference.

This is the same thing I always see in the novice run groups at the track. You see big, heavy high horsepower cars because "they are fast." It's funny how the cars get lighter and more focused once you get into advanced run/instructor groups.

I can tell by your comments that you don't spend a ton of time at tracks. That's OK, but I pretty sure you will change your tune if you ever put meaningful miles on track.

It's your money, spend it however you want and if it gives you a rise talking about your carbon brake kit with other drivers than that is fantastic! Go get 'em tiger!

 

PCCB’s vs. AP Racing

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You made a comment. I corrected you as you were dead wrong. I don't need a lecture as I could not care less what brakes you use.
My ONLY comment on the subject was responding to you with your ridiculous $6K per corner claim (which became $10K for a set...still wrong) for Corvette CCB rotor replacement.
That's all.
How you took that to mean I "don't spend a lot of time at tracks" is mystifying...I never voted for or against CCB verses iron brakes. In fact, I didn't even mention the subject.

 

Compared to 1500 for irons, those ccbs better last a lot longer. Theyre not really lighter than aftermarket Iron, nor do they work betetr..

 

yeah ap is really the way to go.

 

Again...NOT the point. A ridiculous dollar amount was thrown out there about Corvette CCB rotor cost, I responded to that and set the record straight. I'm sure you guys know more about braking than GM/Ferrari/McLaren/Porsche/etc...