https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/nascar-reveals-the-modified-camaro-stock-car-that-will-race-at-le-mans/ar-AA17CyAJ?li=BBnb7Kz Now we will really get to see how camaro does on track
Yeah so not a premium on a new verticble c8. Maybe it didn't do better because its a 1lz or whatever the base is. there's another one with under 50 miles and a 94K msrp on bat now, lets see how that one does. in general, as with housing the mad rush is over. maybe there are still some backorders and residual pent up demand, but supply of stingrays is surely catching up, even if dealers are still trying to play premium gains. I guess if a dealer has one in stock, and you cant use the internet to do a nationwide search and have to have it now, then they can still charge a premium.Some guys in the used car thread are posting that RAM TRXs can be had for 10k below msrp, and F250s are sitting on lots at msrp. For sure Bronco raptors are still hot. I hear you can get a MC20 at list with a 6 month wait. Ultimately its supply and demand. Flippers can try control a market only so long, eventually they need to liquidate, and as the bat auction shows its probably time to get out the flipping singrey market. For sure there are still big premiums on z06s and very few have been delivered vs huge demand, but if they make 5-8k per year, thats also going to find balance within 2 years or sooner. No matter how good the C8 is, the market is only so large and at 25-30k units per year after a few years its going to be well in balance, these are not limited production cars. the new variants will keep the car fresh, as demand for stingrays staurate. But each new variant is far more expensive and by definition that market is smaller. Gm will sue the e-rey, z06,zr1 etc to make more profits and take up the slack as singreys reach saturation. Imo were seeing the beginnings of that now, but yes a ways to go. There were only 13 million new cars sold in the USa, thats less than during the recession. For sure this was driven by supply constraints. But manufactures loved it because the premiums and profits were so good. So they're trying to maintain low inventories. But you know what, if mercedes wont put cars in the showroom floor, genesis and others most surely will. These shortages are passing. yes some new models or variants of a car may always have initial waits, but that passes. Car manufactures need to generate a lot of profits of their ICE cars to fund their move to batteries. While some premiums still exist, the premiums for many cars are evaporating, and this trend will continue, its just math..
Not in NYC and New Jersey. I attend a few C&C events, and with the mild winter they've been active almost every weekend. Most C8 owners I talk to are under 40 years old, with many under 30. Only a handful are 60+. Most older guys kept their C7s (or earlier), and all share the same opinion - they prefer front engine and manuals. I live now not too far from Ciocca and like to stop by on Saturdays, and you can see who's picking up their new C8s, probably 65% are younger guys.
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I guess Fl is different, as are many posters here, not too many youngsters. I see 5-7 C8s in traffic every day, grey hairs Good to hear vetted are being bought by younger people, it keeps the vetet alive for the future..
Nope. "Supply" is STILL an issue on Stingrays, nationwide, and with new variants coming online, will not change anytime in the next several years, if ever during the C8's lifespan.. There is still a minimum of a year wait for a Stingray (at MSRP) in the U.S. Obviously, there are exceptions to the wait time, but they are exceptions, not the rule. As far as Z06's, per one of your earlier posts, you assume that there's a finite number of orders (I think you quoted 15,000) and then it's smooth sailing. That line of thinking applied to the Alfa 4C, the Gen V Viper...it does not apply to the C8 (everyone that WANTED a 4C or a Viper got one in the first 2 years and then sales DIED). To think that everyone that WANTS a Z06 is already on a waiting list and is accounted for is NOT reality. The fact that you see a lot of Stingrays in Florida does not mean that's the norm. In Charlotte, I see more McLarens on a weekly basis than C8's. BTW, how many 911's do you see daily in Florida? A bunch I would imagine, but that doesn't change the fact that in the U.S., they (911's) are NOT laying around on dealer lots, waiting for someone to buy them. You HAVE to order one and it takes a LONG time to get it. PS. The "premiums" on new, desirable cars are going to the dealers (ADM, aka, additional dealer markup). A C8 Stingray going out the door at $100K ($85K MSPR) is $15,000 additional profit for the dealer, NOT GM.
Hmmm....Grey hairs in Florida? Who knew... Seeing as how Florida is in second place (barely behind Maine) in the percentage of people OVER 65 (21.3% ). I'll bet you see just as many "Grey hairs" in Florida driving 911's, Ferraris, McLarens, Lamborghinis also.
just read on rennlist that porsche considers axles a consumable item on gt3 that is used on track. recommend replacement every 6k miles due to heat. wow. these cars are so high performance now that hpde can be like a race car of decade ago. my opinion is to just not drive it so hard. do cool down lap every few hot laps. avoid super hot weather. alternatively, just get a dedicated track car and leave the monster street car for the street.
Well i posted a stingray convertible on BAT an new car that went for $200 under msrp. So id say if a dealer is offerings profit on a year old car take it. Maclrens in charlotte, yeah new money think evtets are below them. How many 911s do I see, in a day less than C8s and i cant tell a 2015 911 from a 2023.. lets just say that different regions have different profiles. I don't expect tos ee a c8 on the road in feb in Ct, but I will see a C4S. the Erey may change that. Will new orders be added to the 15k z06 orders i am assuming are on hand, for sure, but a number of those 15k are duplicates, and some number will migrate tot he e-rey zl1. If I am number 10k I am assuming 2 years out. in 2 years the zr1 will be out and the gotta have it fastest vette crowd will have moved on to that. By year 3 or 4 the wait on a z06 will be under 6 months if at all. There may be long waits on Zr1s,a nd after that zoras. In fact if the zora comes at the end of the production run and is 1000hp etc, liekj oter exotoics not all zora orders will be filled. As the retirement bulge subsides demand will alter. As the cars become more ubiquitous, those who want to be seen in something exclusive wont be buying vettes as they do now. 30k vettes a year for 7 8 years there are going to be more than plenty. Porche only sells 20k 911s globally per year. Currentlyw ere living in the tail end of unusual times induced by covid. That period is coming to an end, and good as the c8 is, the market is only so large, the world has not fundamentally changed. What were seeing is a lot of boomers retiring and more retiring early, all taking years of market wins and buying toys. Add that demand on top of usual demand and you get waits for now. im not saying we'll see lots full of new vetets going 10k under to move the plastic, but what we have now is unusual and impermeant..
This comment is completely out of touch with reality... We are on year 3 of the C8 and there is still a wait in most places for a MSRP deal. You realize they are working double shifts already to try to meet demand for the C8 and very limited Z06s with the Z07 package on constraint (next to none). Next year they will be adding Erays and they all go down the same production line. That means get fewer Z06s and fewer C8s. Not to mention they started building RHD cars as well, which will means fewer cars still for the US. Of course throw in the occasional plant shut down due supply chain issues (like this coming week), that leaves you with less than 70 Z06s were built in the month of February! God forbid if they go back down to a regular single shift. Go post your comment over on the Corvette forum on this thread below "Disastrous Feb production for Z06" and see the response you get. Some people are worried they will never even get to buy one, let alone 6 month wait. If you can convince them what you say is true, they will be very happy. https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c8-z06-zr1-zora-discussion/4710569-disastrous-feb-for-z06-production.html
Perhaps the Honda S2000 would be a good proxy for demand being satisfied over time. First 4 model years were premiums and MSRP. 5th and 6th model years saw discounts materialize. 7th thru 9th model years saw demand drying up quickly. This was over a production run of about 67,000 units for the USA. Europe had a similar, but lesser, production curve. U.S. figures presented: Image Unavailable, Please Login
You can't compare the S2000 to any Corvette generation, sales wise. It's the difference between throwing a bullet and shooting it... If Corvette averaged 7,444 cars a year over 9 years, it would have been dead decades ago.
New money? In Charlotte? C'mon...that's not even close. There is SO much OLD money here that it boggles the mind. So states a 66 year old Charlotte native...me. With respect, you truly do not understand the Corvette market...at all. PS. BaT is A metric...one of many. 95% of the country is not even aware of BaT existence, more than likely so let's not get carried away with what happens there...or Carmax, or Edmunds, or Carvana, or Dupont, etc...
We're talking about the C8 here, not all Corvette production since 1954. Every product has a life cycle and eventually returns to dust as customers lose interest. Olds Cutlass and Ford Taurus were once the best selling cars in America for many years running but eventually lost that title as consumers moved on to more attractive offerings. The same will happen to the C8, too, which will create the need for a C9 someday in the unknown future.
So...2023 is Corvette's 70th year in continuous production....no other car can make that claim. Did the Taurus ultimately fail because the customer changed dramatically or because Ford allowed the product to go stale? Ditto the Cutlass. How has the Corvette stayed alive for 70 years continuously when the sports car graveyard is FULL of cars that were going to knock it off (280Z/280ZX/300ZX/RX-7/RX-8/Mitsubishi VR4/Dodge Stealth/Porsche 924/944/968/Viper/etc...The Corvette was the target for ALL of these cars. And they are all DEAD and buried. The worst model year in the last 40 years was 2018 with 9,686 cars produced (2018 model year only ran 6 months) The point is that Corvettes do NOT fall off the map sales wise in the later years of a generation. Certainly, they slow down some, but... 1996 Last year of the C4: 21,536 cars produced (13 year in production) 2004 Last year of the C5: 34,064 cars produced (8 years in production 2013 Last year of the C6: 13,466 cars produced (9 years in production) 2019 Last year of the C7: 34,822 cars produced (6 years in production)
Lets watch this one. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2023-chevrolet-corvette-9/ Saying bat is not a metric is like thinking netflix wont affect movie theatres. IMO these days BAT gets better prices on anything hot than moste xotic dealers, the smart ones are listing on BAT, look at fantasy junction, they're smart.. Correspondingly anything weakening gets lower prices on bat. Bat is is a barometer. As for Charlotte, that city has grown by how much in the last 20 years, look at lake Norman. Hell NC is not part of the North imo, but that's another issue. Yes corvettes at the end of the C7 may have sold 38k units, but we also know dealers had lots full of cars and were discounting 10-20k. Thats why others here say GM will reward dealers who supported them. Every car has a cycle, and the fcat is vette demand, no matter how good the car is, is only so large. Once we get past first kid on the block itis, once the boomer retirement sureg abates(and it is already starting to cool) once the used car markets ees plenty, a line has to be kept fresh and Gm introduces new variants to keep it going. Theyre using the porche playbook, many variants off a single platform. now the C8 had two big tailwinds, one is the nature of the car itself, truly world class and a useable exotic for a reasonable price, and the other was the post covid retirement bulge. That second wave has affected many other products from fishing boats to aircraft, it is not a permanent economic feature. yes the C8 will remain more in demand than c7s cause its simply better, but all the signs indicate that stingrey excess demand has passed its peak. Clearly the c8 is something that has not existed since the c2, a world class car. After two vettes over the years, they were not on my serious car list, and the c6s and 7s did nothing to change that view for me. Now I am anticipating my z06. So yes there are some new buyers in the game, at least for the more hipo variants. But there is still a lot of excess demand for Gts series proches too. Capitalism will fill that demand either with suitable production or more competition and imo thats happening already.. Anyway lets see.Its like the stock market if anyone really knew the answers we'd be flying around in 747 luxury jets with our cars in the hold.
What dealership list are you on and how far down the list are you for the Z06? Are you trying to get the Z07 package as well?
Uh...I clearly said "BaT IS a metric...one of many"...WTH? Tell you what...let's meet back here in February 2025, and if dealer lots across the country are loaded with new, discounted C8 Stingrays and you can order and receive a C8 Z06 in "6 months", I will proclaim you the Nostradamus of the Corvette business.
I believe we can both agree that Corvette has been successful because it is affordable. However, it has at some times displeased the bean-counters and had at least two near-death experiences: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a21052428/how-the-chevrolet-corvette-was-saved-from-extinction-twice-feature/
no one said dealer Lots would be loaded in 2025.in fact I specifically stated that unlike the c7 lots probably wouldn’t be loaded at the end of the run, which btw is 2029 or so. What I did speculate, and I specifically said I was speculating is that year long waits would be over. In 2 years on stinreys and this will allow gm to make more of the other variants. you maintain there are still over msrp offers on 1 year old stingrays and I’ve posted a link to bat so we can see. I also posted another link where a 470 mike car sold on bay for $200 under msrp and I said maybe the spec made it an anomaly. I’m using data and what I see in the economy in general, as well as demographic trends and history as a guide. It’s a discussion you can disagree and say why, instead we’re degenerating into name calling which classically is a weak argument, but maybe it makes you feel good. I’ve also posted a graph of median ages. Tue fact is while some more young people may be buying some c8s it’s not a young man’s car, if it was it would not be a loaded Luxo gt designed for oldies to easily get in and out, nor carry two sets of golf clubs. time was in the 50s vettes we’re designed specifically to capture the youth market. That’s not the target demographic. we’ve both lived long enough to understand that markets have cycles and this is a superheated cycle due to Covid. People also thought the dot com boom would never end. Markets have cycles and vettes are not a finite resource. At 35-40k units per year premiums will dossapear and waits will shrink. A large segment of new shiney object will Move on from vettes as they become more unbiquitous. Harley’s used to be a 9 month wait, then everyone who wanted one had one and now sales are half their peak. That’s a function of production rates and having an older demographic as your target market. have a nice day
the dealerships with lists are well known and I belive those list are now closed and have been for a while. I’m 2 years I do not see a shortage for the z07. However like some others here I’m wondering where it’s worthwhile. For track the ceramics are pointless. So a z07 offers some aero (realistically not that Much)it’s still a mechanical grip car, stiffer springs and slightly different shock programming. In oter words it’s real value is the springs and shocks. We’ll see what the aftermarket offers in that department when order time comes. What’s the real laptime difference at something like the glen between a reguLr z06 and a z07 on same Tires. Might be only one notional second in which case the z07 is Pointless and personally I way prefer the look Of the regular z06z Maybe in 2 years you’ll be able to get the aero shocks and springs without the ceramics. not saying the z07 does not confer some bemfots but it’s also more of a bling thing than real. We really do not Know how much of z07 lap times compared to a stock z06 is due to the tires and Ct wheels: Same tires and wheels the times may be close to no different. or maybe the real hot Ticket is going to be a stock z06 with zo7 shock programming and soem great aftermarket springs, with some real downforce aero, and lightweight forged track wheels/tires. my bet is that with a set of aftermarket lightweight stiff forged wheels and suitable tires a stock z06 is going to have the same laptime as a z07 in any hands short of a real pro racer. At the level of speed and grip this car can attain lap times are going to be far more driver centric than subtle differences in aero and springs. We’ll the shocks and springs to me are what the z07 boils down to. 700lbs of downforce at 189 Mph is a pointless metric. Firstly it’s not really a whole lot of downforce and secondly downforce is big for cornering speeds and rose are in the 60-140 mph range , what’s the downforce there ? They don’t say. It’s a mechanical grip car and that then boils down to tires more than anything followed by springs and shocks . on a straight where you’re looking for aero stability more than downforce I’m trying to think of a track in USA where this car will hit 170. Vettes btw have had great aero stability since at least the c4. I do think tue aftermarket will make some great aero and oter bits for this car/ I’d Love something along the lines of the c8R if it’s really worked out properly by the aftermarket and not just cosmetic. you can always make you car faster the question is where you can go faster and any 500+ hp car even at 3600lbs is already really fast o track of yore really going for it/. Braking and cornering is where lap times come from. That why the c8R does so well with only 500hp. At this level of performance, driver skill and brain calibration are going to be the key differentiators. There simply are not that many people n with brain calibration to brake from165 at the axctky the right point and then not over take to carry the max speed for a corner. Off the apex it’s easier esp if you’re winding off lock because car systems don’t general let you overlook things these days. it takes me each season maybe 2 days in My Elise to get some brain calibration right, and then another few days in the exige till I get back to optimum times. If I miss 3 weeks it takes a few hours to a day to get back. In between I’m slalom skiing hiking riding motorcycle and running the Elise on road. when the wick gets turned up it’s really driver centric That’s why senna could so well when he started off even being in lesser cars. yeah of course if I’m in a Miata and someone else Is in a z06 that’s too big a gap, but subtle differences between z06s maybe not so much don’t know, we’ll see soon enough when these cars start showing up in practiced hands.
OK. Where did I say there were over MSRP offers for used Stingrays, especially in Feb. 2023? I'll wait. No doubt there were over MSRP offers/sales for used Stingrays 18 months ago. I got my C8 in April 2021. A month after I took delivery, my dealer called and stated that he had a guy, in his office, that would give me $30K OVER what I paid for my car ONE MONTH earlier. That's not a fairytale, that happened to me (I did not sell the car). I think the market is somewhat coming back to earth although if you would take the time to look at OTHER sales venues other than BaT, you would see that there are still PLENTY of used Stingrays over MSRP for sale. Are they getting that price? I don't know, but using BaT as your only source is not a proper representation of the market. Do you actually read what people write? You clearly didn't with my posts. Or you think you've got this all figured out and anyone who disagrees gets a thousand word essay in reply...
