Re: Gearing The small group of "geniuses" on Corvette Forum decided (without ever actually DRIVING a Z06) that GM cheaped out on gearing the car properly, and like most things on the internet, the gearing "manifesto" circled the globe 100 times and became "fact". Reality is, based on LOTS of showy track times by REAL car people, that the Z06 is geared properly, based on it's intended use. When a Z06 can best a 992 GT3 by 3.5 seconds (on a 1.5 minute lap)...reported by a European magazine, clearly the car is not hampered by gearing. It's sad that "experts" (aka bench racers) can't just give the freakin' car it's due. Everyone's an expert, everyone could have done it better, all while parroting a pile of BS that some other loser came up with. The car is VERY fast, VERY capable, and that's that. Any other "critique" just makes one look like a putz. No car is perfect, every car is compromised, but jeez fellows, give it a rest...please.
Best gearing for a particular track, does not necessarily mean best gearing for the street ... stoplight-to-stoplight, twisty back roads, etc etc. Ability to beat another particular car on-track, does not mean the car is optimally geared for best excitement on the street. Dragster posted that the 458 is a more "exciting" drive on the street. I stand by what i've written: i strongly suspect that gearing plays a big role in his assessment. (One big clue, by the way, can be found by multiplying the engine torque through the gear ratios and tire diameters, to see which car gives you the best "seat of the pants" acceleration when you press the loud pedal ) I haven't driven the new Z06, but i have owned and driven a 458 and a Ford GT (2005). There's simply no question, that the loonnngggg gearing in the Ford GT robbed it from some excitement on the street (compared to the 458, and a few other cars i was driving at the time). I have the original SAE articles, by the way, where the engineers stated that the long gearing in the Ford GT was a marketing call ... not a performance-driven decision by engineers or car enthusiasts. So we can dispense with the idea that these big automotive companies are always the "smartest guys in the room", when it comes to pure performance. They've got way too many other concerns when designing and building a production car.
^^^ Wait...a LONG time Ferrari owner prefers a...Ferrari? Who knew. Please note the word "compromise" in my post. No one said anything about the Corvette team being the "smartest guys in the room". The Corvette customer has EXPECTATIONS that Ferrari does not, such as utility, cost of ownership, reliability, etc.
My advice to anyone expecting a Ferrari clone from the C8 Corvette... Don't buy a C8 It's a car with strengths that no Ferrari has. It is a car that can be used everyday, that has utility, is very fast. It is, as the executive chief engineer states, the MANTRA for the car is: "It must have great band width". Making a great $300K sportscar is NOT a trick. Making a great $80K sportscar? Now that's a trick. And then making a great $120K sportscar that actually gets compared to $300K sportscars...well, that is amazing. It seems the only people that compare Corvettes to Ferraris are...Ferrari owners. I've never understood that. Two different companies making two vastly different products, for vastly different customers. Very few Ferrari owners are cross shopping C8's...and vice/versa.
^^^ There's at least 2 people in this thread alone (not me) comparing and cross-shopping the new vette with a used Ferrari 458. Imagine that. That's where my comments have been directed.
Agree with most of this, but I’m also an example of the few cross shopping Ferrari/Corvette/Porsche. I did so when I got my F430 and doing so now as decide on my next car. To your point though, I doubt many are cross shopping a new Ferrari with these two as new purchases, but this $130k Z06 is being matched against $100-$300k used exotics circa model year 2005-2017. To be honest, to me the hardest part is giving up the Ferrari community; it’s pretty unique. I enjoy the varied FCA events, and even though I don’t do all of my servicing or purchases at the Ferrari dealership, I do enjoy the relationships I’ve built there; and how I still get treated the same as other owners with massively deeper pockets.
Thanks. I also know a few guys outside this thread that are cross-shopping new vettes with used Ferraris. And ... I'm a fan of all of it Excitement on the street is much harder to quantify than lap times. How do you measure a visceral experience, that may (or may not) hit on all the senses? I'll mention a car i've already mentioned a few times, in discussions about American muscle ... the modern Yenko Camaro. It's an extremely exciting car to drive ... sounds great, manual trans, with the right combination of gearing & power (1100+ hp) to literally break the tires loose in at least 4 gears But i'm sure it wouldn't perform particularly well on any of the popular tracks and, to my earlier point, i'm equally sure that GM could never offer such a car in these times. Too loud, too dangerous, bad emissions, etc etc. Doesn't surprise me at all, that enthusiasts are still looking for ways to improve pure performance beyond what a factory can offer.
I compared them because many media outlets have dubbed the C8 Z06 the American Ferrari or the American 458. Hell, we know GM bought a 458 to benchmark the Z06 against. They're both mid engine, naturally aspirated V8 sports cars. It only seems natural to compare how they drive. To address your first post, I'm actually not a long-time Ferrari owner. The 458 is my first Ferrari, and I bought it about 2 years ago. While I do love the car, I don't consider myself a brand snob. I don't care to be seen in the car, and I don't take it out to dinner so people can see me drive up in it. I bought it to drive, because simply driving is one of my favorite pastimes. I don't look down on other brands, and in fact, I've owned multiple Mustangs; I sold my highly modified 2015 GT when I bought the 458, and I miss the car. There's just something about Mustangs that does it for me--the sound, the manual transmission, and the fact that--like the Corvette--it's fairly inexpensive to modify, work on, repair, etc. I'm thinking about adding another one to replace the 2015. While I've never owned a Corvette, I did consider buying a C6 and a C7, but there was always something that held me back. I wasn't a fan of the C6 interior, and I could never get a comfortable driving position in the C7 that I liked. I like the C8 a lot. While I'm not a fan of the wall of buttons, I like the driver's side of the cockpit, and I think the overall quality is really nice, especially in 3LT/3LZ trim. I'm also a fan of the design. All of this is to say, I didn't prefer driving the Ferrari just because it's a Ferrari. A spec sheet can only tell you so much about a car. It doesn't really describe how the car feels to drive. To me, the Z06 was very soft and isolated in comparison to the 458. Many modern cars have been criticized for this, and it isn't exclusive to the Z06. Maybe a Z07 equipped car would address the suspension for me, but I don't know. I understand that GM has to make these cars with a broad bandwidth, and I think they can still achieve that goal while also making the car more exciting to drive. If you really wanted to, you could use the 458 as a daily. It's comfortable enough, and the frunk has enough space to bring along most stuff you'd need on a daily basis (it's bigger than the C8 frunk). Firming up the suspension a bit and losing some sound deadening material would go a long way for me towards making the Z06 a more exciting, visceral car to drive. And please don't mistake me--I'm not saying it's not a good car! It's fast, comfortable, has a nice interior, lots of tech, etc. I don't know if there's another car at its price that I would take over it. It just feels much more GT car than sports car, and that was a surprising takeaway for me from my drive. I honestly expected them to feel more similar than they did. I think I would have preferred if they had taken a bit of the C6 Z06 philosophy and tried to trim some weight (and sound deadening material) because it would've livened up the car quite a bit, in my opinion.
I have been looking for 458 spider for some time and prices are still very high while selection is weak. I went to my dealer this week and asked if he knew of any coming up. I want a certified car to get the warranty (they will warranty back 14 years). My dealer has several 488's but they are almost the same price as a 458 (which is bad for the 488). LOTS of 488's out there but few 458s. People are not selling them. Maybe in the fall. I'm picky about a 458 spider. Has to be the right color combo and right options. IMO it must have the CF steering wheel with LEDs and would prefer Daytona seats over the standard --- or racing seats which I liked better but are very rare. And, of course, certified and sold by a Ferrari dealer. I asked about the MC20. They have 2. This car is beautiful. But no one is taking orders on convertibles. I'm not sure Maserati wants to keep making them. Seems like they won't take anymore orders. So I'll bide my time and wait for the call... but I'm not holding my breath.
Yeah, it really is crazy that it's actually easier to get a 458 right now than a Corvette! I'm sure GM is doing everything they can to pump out as many C8s as they can, so hopefully things start to normalize soon, but who knows!
I have a theory but its just my opinion on the way things are going at GM. GM is going all in on electric. The Eray fits that bill. The Z06 does not. And probably the Eray is easier to build given its a Stingray with an electric front axle on the same assembly line. Shoe horning the Z06 motor into the C8 must slow up the production of all C8's (they all are built on the same line). The C8 was already designed to hold the battery pack so very little retooling of the assembly line needs to be done. The Z06 requires specialized technicians to build each motor. Quality control on the engine must be difficult for a mass producer like GM. Its why Ford subcontracted the Ford GT. So it will be easier to get Erays when they reach production because it fits GM's current direction of "the future". And I believe GM thinks a good number of Z06 buyers will switch to Eray when they see it in action and will be able to actually get one. And one more thing. I believe when the Eray hits production GM will raise the price of the Z06 to get buyers to jump.
^^^ Z06 engine has the same bore centers as the LT2...there is no "shoehorning" an LT6 into a C8. The car was designed with multiple engines in mind. Other than being a bit taller, it is very close in size to the LT2. As far as "cross shopping", I always think this is "new verses new", not a new C8 with full warranty verses at best, an 8 year old Ferrari.
I don't disagree but if GM does in fact raise prices to get me to jump, I will definitely jump, but it won't be to an ERay. I think they should be very careful in potentially pissing off even more of their customer base. Personally, I'm about a $10K price increase away from abandoning the ZO6 and picking up a 675LT.
I think a lot of the hoses, wiring, accessories are different. It fits OK but on the line its going to slow them up. I've been to the factory. The line keeps moving constantly BUT it can stop if anyone has a problem. Seems to me the more Z06's they put on the line, the fewer C8's they can build a day. But I am speculating of course.
There's some truth to this theory. I'm on both the E-Ray and Z06 lists. I'd rather have the Z06, but the driving reviews of the E-Ray were pretty good; and it feels like a car that I may realistically get to purchase within 5 years rather than wondering if I'll ever get called up to build my own Z06. I also think it's the only hybrid that sounds cool just based on what I've seen/heard on the video's. I agree with you here. I like the Z06 as a pragmatic option to the 458. Get's most of what I want, with less headaches. I've said it here before though, I won't buy it if it's within range of a 458 spyder. The Z06 is not a replacement for the 458, rather a worthy alternative for those who like to rationalize expensive purchases as much as possible.
I don't think the engine build is an issue for GM at all. They have been doing hand built engines for the Z06 since 2005 and then added the ZR1 to the line. The new motor is no issue to build and have quality control too. I would have to say they are the best in the business at this. So much so, they will let you pay to come in and build it yourself with their tech watching. No one does that.
Thanks for mentioning that. I was actually curious if this was an issue on other models. I've driven an 08 911, but outside of that only the 06 Cayman S I previously owned, and the 981 Spyder I test drove.
Gt4 has a manual box, and the gears are tall. Porche said to change this they'd need to design an new box, for whatever reason. On the 4rs its a pdk box so there are I think 7 or 8 gears? In any event the first 5 or 6 are closely stacked as you'd want on a track. its inetrestign that the whole cayman boxter was moribund untill the gt4 came out, then sales of that range lyeraly doubled. Turns out a lot of people do want a real performance car, as opposed to a flatulent turbo4, with paddles and soft suspension. the 4rs os the car many people were wishing for since probably the boxeter came out. I think theyre making 3x the number of Gt3s and its a longer wait. On the vette, the gearing probably makes sense for a pushrod v8, were its all about low and mid range tq, so you naturally pull well with longer gears, plus the stingrey is really a road car first and foremost. On the z06 they run the same gears just different final drive, thats makes sense as the motor needs to rev to make power and it works in the lower gears with are naturaly shorter in a road car, but as you go up though the gears at speed, theyre simply too tall and it unnecessarily blunts performance especialy in a motor that uses revs for power.. Ill bet that the vette team had to choose its battles. They got the me layout and crucially the motor. Other issues like weight, stiffness rawness, aero, seats etc, are battles they can win on another day later down the line. The crucial high investment good bits are there, so they chose their battles well. Pity it has to be this way, but then coprations are run by committees and dumb. A camel is a horse designed by a comitee. the vette has always been a volume play, thats how it survives within Gm. The team went for the z06 spec that would get the most volume, the Gt spec. For sure they have other z06 specs in mind, the question is if and when theyll be allowed to build them. Currently they cant even deliver a fraction of the potential orders out there, so I imagine there is little impetus for a more honed spec Maybe that wont come till the c9, or maybe, well only see it towards the end of the run when some other version of the c8 is in the limelight and the z06 gets some freshening. ill bet the success of the c8 blew past any Gm projection, and the z06 even more so.
Well, informed mine is at status 4150- built, sitting in the parking lot at Bowling Green. shocked at how fast this went. Allocation -> delivery in -6-8 weeks. I will post pics, hopefully in a month or so. Going to put on one very obnoxious wrap.
Ok. So since you've "been to the factory" (as have I), we know that there is only ONE line. Obviously, if they build MORE Z06's, they are going to build LESS Stingrays. The line can only build so many cars a day. What hoses, wiring, accessories are so tricky that a Z06 "slows down production? The engine is complete when it gets to line, so they are hooking up hoses for engine/transmission cooling (just like a Z51), hoses for air intake (no doubt routed exactly like a Stingray), and BCM/ECM/Anti lock (no doubt those modules located in the exact same spot that they are on a Stingray), battery (ditto). Interiors are identical so no time lost there. Now, the eRay is going to be more time consuming to build than either the Z06 or the Stingray. Different front clip, electric motor/front drive shafts to mount,, battery to wire into the central tunnel along with the cooling circuit which Z06/Stingray DON'T have. Plus connecting all of this NEW stuff to the LT2.
An interesting side effect of driving my friend's Z06 is that I've found myself thinking about the Eray a lot lately. Assuming that the ride is similar to the Z06, the AWD and electric motor are going to make for a pretty great combination on the street. The one hangup I have is that, for the price, it seems less special than the Z06 since it uses the same engine as the Stingray. I guess we'll have to see what the price difference is once the full build and price launches, but I imagine that they'll be pretty similar when well equipped. Maybe an AWD launch from a stoplight would make me overlook that. I can't help but think that the Z06 will retain its value better, but I guess time will tell...
