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Cali lap times at Vairano

Discussion in 'California/Portofino/Roma' started by MalibuGuy, May 24, 2009.

  1. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,061
    #1 MalibuGuy, May 24, 2009
    Last edited: May 24, 2009
    Just saw some Lap Times at Vairano on the Lap Times site.
    The Cali was slower that the F430 but faster than the Alfa 8C, Ford GT, 360CS, maserati Gran Turismo S, and a number of 997 Porsches including the Turbo.
     
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  3. TeamF1Jr

    TeamF1Jr Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2003
    2,319
    Lake Mead
    There are a few models on that list that really surprise me that the Cali beat them.
     
  4. modenaboy

    modenaboy Karting

    Nov 17, 2003
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    Gordie
    Not to rain on the Cali's parade (from what I've seen/heard so far, I love the car), but I'm not sure how much the times on that site really tell you, other than a good baseline.

    Comparisons like these seem to have a lot of variables - aren't these based on tests from different drivers, different magazines, different days, with different weather conditions? It is good to get a baseline, but some of the results really surprise me, and I suspect with different drivers on different days the results would be different.

    Related to this, I also notice in some magazine tests, car A will blow car B into the weeds on a track or in acceleration testing, and then in another magazine on another day and another track, it's the opposite.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is I want to drive a California!
     
  5. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,061
    You bring up some good points about the weather and driver and other variables such as tires and suspension set-up.

    But then I think that lap times do add something meaningful to the performance discussion. After all, a lap time is one of the reasons why Ferrari's exist.

    It will be interesting to see how the Cali fares on other tracks. I am very interested to see it's times at Fiorano. The factory drivers know that track pretty well so I think the driver variable will be pretty neutral.
     
  6. marksp

    marksp Formula Junior

    Jul 10, 2006
    737
    Redmond, WA
    Vairano = Fiorano?
     
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  8. modenaboy

    modenaboy Karting

    Nov 17, 2003
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    They are different tracks.

    Fiorano is owned by Ferrari and is their private test track, about 1.9 miles. Times there set by Ferrari drivers are pretty comparable, as long as you take weather conditions into account. They they changed the track in 1996 - so comparing an F40 to a newer car isn't equal. (Same for the Evo Magazine test track, they changed it a few years back, and in their magazine they only list lap times for the new track).

    Vairano is just south of Milan, and lots of car magazines test there. The main straight is also used for F1 and aero tests. Short 1 3/4 mile course, lots of fast turns and hard braking zones, making it a good test of handling. I don't know if it has been changed over the years. I think Vairano might have a few different configurations.
     
  9. SS2012

    SS2012 Formula Junior

    Jun 4, 2006
    696
    Faster than 360CS & Ford GT!? Well there goes the soft cruiser arguments.....
     
  10. Suspence

    Suspence Formula Junior

    May 6, 2006
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    Spencer Berke
    Yeah definitely.
     
  11. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
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  13. Guibo

    Guibo Karting

    Nov 21, 2003
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  14. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,061
    Thanks for the Video link!

    Barker did a 1.25 lap with John Hindhaugh in the car! Since Hindhaugh looks to weight maybe 180lbs, the Cali is no slouch around the track.
     
  15. vaqas0

    vaqas0 Karting

    Jan 4, 2009
    60
    wow thats great :p
     
  16. AlexO91

    AlexO91 F1 Rookie

    Sep 26, 2008
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    Defferently. +1
     
  17. AlexO91

    AlexO91 F1 Rookie

    Sep 26, 2008
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    Legend.

    Yeah the Cali does look quick, was abit supprised when he said he would be happy with a time about the same as a BMW M3. Car seems abit tail happy, maybe thats the track or the driver show-boating i don't know, thats jus twhat it seems to me.

    P.S. Still think Red isn't it's best colour... and thoughs wheels too.
     
  18. VisualHomage

    VisualHomage F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2006
    5,579
    SoCal
    This car is a Ferrari, not a Camry. Don't let it's status as a convertible fool you.

    It's been tested against the F430 months ago and it nearly equaled it. All of the bashing and dissing of the Cali is BS as far as I'm concerned. It's a great car if you want a retractable GT.
     
  19. TrojanHorse

    TrojanHorse Formula Junior

    Mar 1, 2005
    973
    South Texas
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    Paul
    What is a "retractable GT"...I understand that term to mean "Mercedes SL550". Today, you might even get agreement that the Cali is a competitor of the AMG's SLs (like old SL55 or new SL63) but beyond these cars (and possibly the new Alfa 8C), what other retractables fit into this market space?

    Here's another thought: I've owned a "55" and driven both a 63 and 65 (owned by friends) so I'd strongly differ with any suggestion any "retractable" SL's are even close to my old 997 GT3 or Turbo in actual all around ability, much less a proper Italian like the F430/599 or LP560-4.

    What Ferrari appears to have done is create a Rodeo Drive California Cruiser--and, while apparently making a good effort at this segment (SL/Alfa space), the Cali "ain't no" 430, 599 or Lambo. Its feel, ability, and styling is simply not going to get traction with those wanting a true, red blooded, Ferrari or Lambo, and you can be sure it'll be woefully outclassed by the upcoming 458 Italia.

    My thought--if you want or need a "boulevard cruiser", and don't find $200k for the base out of line, surely take a look. But you're dreaming if you believe for a minute that its something else.
     
  20. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,061
    #17 MalibuGuy, Aug 12, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2009
    Wait a sec- the Cali with a passenger was faster than the Lambo 640 on this course.
    So styling and driving experience aside , it deserves some respect.
    The Cali with passenger was faster than the MB AMG Black 65 too.
    The MB black is a non retractable coupe.
     
  21. Guibo

    Guibo Karting

    Nov 21, 2003
    165
    The LP640 had a passenger (that's Evo's standard method), and the track was partially damp. Still a strong showing by the California.
     
  22. VisualHomage

    VisualHomage F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2006
    5,579
    SoCal
    Why do you care what "market space" it "fits into?" Who cares. This car isn't a parallel to any Mercedes. You've never heard of a retractable roof?


    I don't see your point. Why care about your Mercedes in the same sentence as this car? The California is a retractable hard top vehicle, and somehow this has to be a talk about Mercedes Benz? Ferrari and Mercedes Benz are entirely different planets, including the California.

    Who said it was a "Lambo?" Or "599?"

    Again why are you comparing this car now to a 458 Italia? Who ever said it was in that class of appeal or performance? All I said was don't let the fact that it's a convertible fool you. It performs beyond how it may look. It just does.

    Why must I be a GT3 owner or buyer now? That isn't a parallel either. I compared the California to a GT3? When?

    Take a chill pill, friend
     
  23. TrojanHorse

    TrojanHorse Formula Junior

    Mar 1, 2005
    973
    South Texas
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    Paul
    I've long ago chilled but I do take issue with throw away lines and so-called expert opinions, especially when it depreciates a legacy as worthy as Enzo's...

    Indeed, it seems but another case of a non owner suggesting somehow they just "know" what makes or doesn't a so-called "great ferrari"--here's a hint, what you've read in MotorTrend doesn't count.

    My points speak for themselves--a retractable roof, your "qualification" for the car not mine, are present on a few "sports cars" (like BMW 3 Series), but the standard of this class has generally been considered SLs--with AMG's being the most closely tied based on hp and driving dynamics. That makes The Cali and SLs direct competitors.

    And as for driving performance/dynamics/feel of a Cali (which by the way is substantially heavier with substanially less hp than either the LP560-4 or F430 and which you somehow equate to a nearly as good as a F430), my opinion is that it doesn't even equal my old 997 GT3--a great car in and of itself, but which I'll report is not nearly as well sorted or "good" as my F430. (And, by the way, I wasn't suggesting you buy one). Another way to look at it: How many Cali's do you think we'll see "competing" in the GT classes at any race over the next few years? Does "0" ring a bell.

    To be fair, you also suggested also that the Cali "performs way better than it looks"--which I'd love to know how you determined. But no matter, to most Ferrari owners this is a back handed compliment, at best. Many (of course not all) would say a Cali is an overweight, badly designed, bloated and reformulated Maser developed by corporate simply to "extend" (read "milk") brand value by selling to so-called "new, non traditional" Ferrari customers.

    My perspective stands.

    The Cali may be the best performing "boulevard cruiser"--that's yet to be decided, but its certainly not the best looking--instead that title, in my opinion, currently goes to the Alfa 8C Spider.

    So if you want to buy a $225k "cruiser" that carries the Ferrari brand, great, do so. Personally, I consider it a lot like buying a "Panamera", not for the performance but simply because you want to say you own a Porsche.

    On the other hand, you want to own a contemporary Ferrari that IS worthy of the brand, Enzo's stewardship, and the company's racing history, try a F430, a Scud (or more closely competitive to the Cali, their topless cohorts), esp since in this economic market, current used prices of all of them make the Cali seem heavily overpriced.

    If instead, you actually want a Ferrari "GT", then buy a 599--a car truly worthy of the tradition of great Ferrari GTs, ie, 12 cyl, heavy on luxury AND true performance.

    These are Ferraris, friend, not just noise leaving the gates in Maranello.
     
  24. VisualHomage

    VisualHomage F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2006
    5,579
    SoCal
    I don't doubt your experiences with these other cars. I don't refute your knowledge about them. But friend, you are going far-afield from what I initially said about the California, very far afield.

    You also are claiming things, with a hint of condescension, that I never implied --all to capitalize yet again on bashing the car as we've all heard before. "It's fake, it's a Maser, it's a fraud, it's a sellout, etc..."

    Many people are surprised at it's performance and I corroborated, indeed, to not judge it based on it's being a convertible. I never implied what you claim I have. It's not an F430 nor is it interchangeable with the F430. It's not a 599, it's not.... whatever.

    Somehow you're skewing this to mean that somehow I implied the California is now a dedicated track car, on par with the likes of a GT3, which is silly and ludicrous that you'd even glean such a thing from what I have said.
     
  25. PA Wolfpacker

    PA Wolfpacker Formula Junior

    Aug 19, 2007
    491
    Naples, FL
    Full Name:
    Neil
    I continue to be amazed at the negativity from those that seem to think the Cali somehow infringes on the Ferrari tradition. The car was designed to be a GT, not a sports car. What is wrong with that? As a GT it has very impressive performance numbers that hold up well against it's competition (as a previous SL owner I can attest to that). This reflects well on the Ferrari tradition.

    You ask why not buy a 599, it is very simple - it does not have a retractable hard top. If you could get a 430 (or 458 for that matter) or 599 with a retractable hard top I would buy one in a heart beat. Also, I want a "little" practicality in my car (it will be nice to be able to take my golf clubs with me once and a while) so the Cali fits the bill.

    If I hit the lottery and can afford both a GT and a sports car then maybe I would pass on the Cali and purchase a 430/458 and a 599, but that ain't gonna happen.
     
  26. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,061
    Hey that is interesting about the passenger. I wonder why they do that? Does the passenger participate in the timing or is it just so they can have video commentary?
     
  27. Guibo

    Guibo Karting

    Nov 21, 2003
    165
    I'm not sure why they do it. It does seem highly unusual among the industry. FWIW, they re-tested the Caparo T1 in the same session with a passenger to make the time more comparable to other cars; they had previously tested it w/o passenger and so considered that one a provisional time only.
     
  28. TrojanHorse

    TrojanHorse Formula Junior

    Mar 1, 2005
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    South Texas
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    Paul
    What is "wrong" is that we are purists, period.

    To us, it was bad enough when corporate interests ran ruff-shod over Porsche in the name of "revenue" or "brand extension" under the guise of affording continued sports car/racing development. Instead, as we've seen, the suits ended up losing the soul of a great company and wanking a legendary, historic brand into just another, ie, the 10th, nameplate of Volkswagon. It doesn't mean Porsche make "bad cars" now, indeed some like the GT 3 are really excellent, but if you really value a "Porsche", I'd suggest you quickly buy a 1998 aircooled 993 like a C4s or 993 TT. Or, if you can swing it, a Carrera GT. There simply won't be anything like these "neo classics" built again in Stuttgard, especially since the parts bins at VW are surely to be shared--via so called joint development agreements. (It actually wouldn't surprise me to see the next gen of the 911 be its last. )

    While owned by Fiat, likely an even larger maker now than VW, Ferrari has always avoided that fate and adhered to Enzo's legacy--make racing and uncompromised sports cars true to his so-called vision. It doesn't mean they were "perfect" or the "best" --far from it. But it always seemed as if at least they were designed and built to his vision and not simply for corporate expediency. I'd guess Fiat left them alone because Ferrari's output was so small--almost cottage like--and whether they made or lost a bit wasn't really the driving factor. It was more about art, performance and Italian style.

    But in today's market, Ferrari's profits have suddenly become a life saver for Fiat. So when I see the Cali, the smell corporate opportunism (wrapped in the cloth of brand extension) suddenly seems very strong.

    And from that comes a very real fear that Ferrari's soul is at risk--maybe only the "first cog" with the Cali, but a cog none the less that risks loss of what is the "last" survivor of the legendary, uncompromised, auto makers--On this issue, like many others, I'm not willing to go quietly into that good night.
     

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