Califorina Law School Question

LAfun2 AKA Ryan goes to UC Berkely, he was interested in their law school but said they actually dont like their own BA alumni to attend the law school, wierd.
I lived in SF in 98 & 99, didnt really care for it, too cold & too dirty & too many bums
These are state schools so there may be some preferences given to CA students.
CA land of fruits & nuts
I prefer LA to SF any day

 

I know that VA Law has a different admissions policy for state residents, however, UCLA and UC Berkeley do not have similar stated policies. I also don't think it is accurate to suggest that the UC schools don't like their own undergrads for law school. I went to UCLA u.g. and law school, and so did many of my class mates.

I just toured the campus yesterday for the first time in a long time, it is truly a great place to go to school and maintain a high quality of life.

 

LA Swede,

You misunderstood what William said. He didn't say UC schools don't like their own BA alumnis, but instead he said BERKELEY doesn't like their own alumnis.

I currently attend UCB, and though they accept their alumnis, in reason of diversification, they prefer other schools undergrads.

William,

I agree with you. I loved the charm of the Northern CA when I initially got accepted. It was a fun fantasy, but living here is horrible. Berkeley has one of the highest crime rates in the bay area. My brand new motorcycle got stolen, and two of my cars were severely vandalized. Thus I have to live with no transportation up here (I know there is BART, but trust me once you are used to your own car, public transport is not the most choice option). Personally, even if I get accepted to UCB's law school, I will not attend. The streets are dirty, women are getting raped in the Res. Halls (4 just last semester), crack addicts abound around People's Park and the living conditions in surrounding apartments are horrendous. Makes the inner city of New York look like Beverly Hills.

I have always been an advocate of going to the best school, and damn the enviroment and living conditions. However, after residing in the people's republic of Berkeley, I regret my decision to come here.

As far as weather, you are correct William, this is not CA weather. Sure there are few nice days, but even on Friday of last week, I needed a jacket. Living in Berkeley, is exactly like living in Seattle, with a little less rain.

I also agree with William, that LA>Berkeley any day.


Dr. Tax,

I am at Cal now, so if you or your daughter have any specific questions about the law school or the area, don't hesitate to PM me or email me, and I will give you my contact number. Or if you want to meet with me while I am in Houston in the upcoming weeks, we can arrange that as well. Berkeley does not have an admission policy that is geared towards the CA residents. More CA residents do go here, but Boalt Law loves to have UG's from other schools. There are many out of staters that come here, and some Ivy Leaguers that come here. I believe your daughter is at Dartmouth, so CA will be a nice change. However she will be surprised by the SF weather, as it is not reflective of CA, sadly. Lastly, the charm of SF does not lend itself to the city of Berkeley. I remember reading you lived in Sacramento for a while, so you are probably familiar with the area. Berkeley has much more in common with its sister city of Oakland (and I am not talking about the Oakland hills either), than it does with SF.

I will be applying this fall, thus have researched many a schools in CA and in other states. If she is really wants to come to cali, and weather and safe living is a concern, I would personally suggest the following:

UCLA (great school, great campus, can't beat westwood)

USC (great school for business law, very good and suportive alumni base, commuter friendly, so you don't have to live in downtown)

Pepperdine (heart of malibu, the view is great, very clean and nice campus, upscale)

Stanford (south bay area of SF, very preppy, clean, quality education)

UC Hastings (downtown SF, good school, great trial law program, living is tough in that neighborhood but there are other places in SF to commute from).

UC Davis (if she wants to live in Hicktown USA and wants to tip cows for entertainment).

Personally, I really like UT Austin. It is a very high ranked school, and the price is dirt cheap. However they only allow 20% out of state students, so it might be difficult for me to enter there, but I am shooting for that. I am not sure if your daughter wants to live in TX, but that is a great school imho.

Hope some of that helped.

-Ryan

 

Lafun2, got it. You are right, sloppy reading on my part. Didn't know that about Berk.

I hear you re:"I have always been an advocate of going to the best school, and damn the enviroment and living conditions. However, after residing in the people's republic of Berkeley, I regret my decision to come here."

I was the complete opposite. I knew I needed a great environment and great weather. For those reasons I wrote off the Bay Area, Boston and NY-schools. I briefly considered Duke for a second, but in the end didn't apply. I knew that I would have been miserable anywhere but in L.A. and even though I was admitted to much higher ranked schools I think I made the right decision as my life would have been hell if I was anywhere else for those three years. On the other hand, my case may be a tad extreme in that I suffer from SAD and really need the sunshine. Some days I think that I should have gone to Harvard or Stanford, and would have been able to write my own ticket from there, but I wouldn't have been able to function in that environment, given the weather. If weather is not that important to you, I would suggest going to the best school you can get into. A student doing poorly at Harvard will still be a Harvard grad and be able to get his/her foot in the door much easier than a decent UCLA student can.

I have been to UT-A. Very nice area, very humid in the summer time though. If you can deal with the weather, UVA might also be a nice option.

 

Have her check out Chapman University. Im going there next year and they have a VERYpromising young law school. Ive heard nothing but great things about it!!

Chapman is a nice, small, private school with a very comfortable and friendly small town atmosphere. If she walked on the campus she would instantly fall in love.

www.chapman.edu

 

Tell her to go to Columbia.

 

I believe I did answer the question in my initial post, but maybe I did not make myself clear.

California state schools (UC System) gives preferences for Undergrads from in state. However when it comes to graduate school, the preferences vary and there are no stated rules as LASWEDE mentioned above. UCLA likes their BA alumnis for their law school, where as Berkeley prefers to take a more diverse Law School entering class.

I don't think I could state it more clearly, but like I said Dale, if you or her need to speak to me directly you can PM or email me.

Ryan "big fan of Dr. Tax" Z.

 

Lol. Ok got it. Dr. Tax, whenver I read your posts it always seems like you really want to come out to Ca. I notice you hang out in the CA regional section, and love when pics are shown of CA. This may be too personal, thus you don't have to answer. Do you stay in TX, because of your sig other and her attachment to TX? Reason I ask is, you always say look forward through the windshield because it is all about the future, but to me at times it seems that you look back at your time in CA, and wish you could have it back?

Then again this is the internet, and I maybe just reading too much into your posts. If that is the case, apologize in advance.

 

Back when I was applying to law school I thought there was preference for in-state at the UC schools, but I'm not certain on that.

Considering your daughter's pedigree up to this point and academic trajectory, I'd say in CA only: 1. Stanford; 2. Berkeley and 3. UCLA... with heavy preference for #1.

I don't think anything else would be worth the sacrifice of a good NE law school. It's a tough thing to bear when you're not fond of winter, I know (I KNOW!), but the good school is worth the agony of 3 winters IMO.

 

You are pretty much right with the assumption about academia and judging. The population breakdown of law professors is pretty much in line with the USNWR rankings, with Y/H/S/Col. with the lion's share of professors nationwide. I would say in the federal court system it's much easier to get a bench and/or a clerkship from a "Top 6" school (the previous, and NYU and UChicago). If she's considering it, law professors make very, very good money and have relatively light class loads (which means more 'consulting' time = $$). Even at a low-tier law school profs are pulling in $95k+, and much more at bigger schools. Sure, it's not partner money, but I don't think there's even junior associate stress there- and summers off to lounge around the Italian Riviera are a nice perk...

UT, UCLA and UVA are good schools, which do carry some weight nationally... but my main point about 'local' schools: IF you know you want to practice in LA, TX or DC, then I don't think you would be much worse off career-wise than at a Top 6 school. They have tight local networks and you'd get to know the area - indeed, a high percentage of law students end up within 80mi of their school (or so I've read). And obviously, once you start working your performance becomes a large factor of your progress. We were told in class though, that the gap (between schools) in average starting salaries increases as you move to partnership (likely a factor of local law firm $$ vs. national/worldwide law firm $$).

However, I'll say that with a top degree, leaving school becomes a lot easier because you can pick and choose what you want, and have less of a feeling of 'taking what you can get.' The biggest NYC megafirms aside, the real difficulty of the job hunt is just convincing the hiring partner that you want to live in that city. There's a lot more mobility; and not just within the law...

My opinion only: many law schools (mostly mid-ranked schools) will tout the law degree as a super flexible degree leading to hundreds of careers. I've gotten several of these lists at events. I think that such degrees are not very flexible - or not nearly as flexible as UC San Diego would have you believe. The most flexible degrees are from the top schools. There you get recruited by banks, consulting firms, and over 600 law firms (Yale and Stanford get a few less, but they still get nearly 2 employers per grad for on-campus interviews - let alone the fact they can cold-call for a job to ANY firm almost worldwide). Unless you know someone, you cannot jump into i-banking or consulting or something else straight from Georgia State, or even Emory.

I'm just saying don't think a law degree is an MBA - IMO the real "flexible" grad degree in the business world. The only exceptions are Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, NYU and Chicago, maybe a few others. If your daughter doesn't have it already, I suggest she get "How to Get into the Top Law Schools" by Richard Montauk.

The only time I think I've ever recommended to someone just go to a state school who could go higher is when she mentioned she wanted specifically to be a family law lawyer in Colorado (her home). Such local private law careers (esp. as a wife and mother) would be ideal state-school material. Note that all top schools offer loan-forgiveness programs for practioners of gov't/public interest law. If you want to be a gov't lawyer or non-profit in-house for 10 years post-grad, the long-term $ cost to you of law school - even pricey NYU and Columbia - could be $0. If you read law career advice from books or legal career columns such as "Ann Israel," http://www.nylawyer.com/lawlorn/ , they will almost always tell you to go to the best [ranked] school that you can.

Lastly, it's much harder to get into law school IMO than the actual work (not that the schoolwork is *easy*, but admissions is the tough game). The biggest investment of time and effort should be in a strong LSAT and application: the low end of the class at Columbia are still getting jobs, whereas at, say, St. John's, you're going to have to fight tooth and nail through three years of law school to land a job. The time put in beforehand means a considerable amount less sweat and tears later on.

Phew. There's a lot to mull over. I hope no one's offended with me mentioning those law schools - I just pulled the names out of the air.

 

Ryan - I'll be there the 14th. Check your email.

 

Q: [Ivy League or Regional? Been accepted to both]

A:
Dear Anxious:

Well, here we go again! This debate will never end. However, I must still stand by my statement that you should go to the best school you possibly can and that is my final answer.

...

There is no shame and certainly nothing wrong if you end up going to your regional law school. But if you are asking my opinion then you need to be prepared to hear it…and my opinion is the same as it was last week and last year and the year before. If you are deciding between a second tier school and a top tier Ivy League school, go to the school that has the highest ranking. Period, the end. No-brainer. That's my opinion. So don't get mad at me when I voice my opinion. This is not the law, nor is it the final word. It is just what I personally have learned over many years as a legal recruiter.

...But if you are going to ask me what I think you should do, then you are going to hear me tell you to go to the school that has the highest ranking. Best wishes!

________________
excerpted from http://www.nylawyer.com/lawlorn/04/ad010504.html

More on 'the Scar of Attending a 3rd Tier Law School' and trying to lateral in the big firms: http://www.nylawyer.com/lawlorn/04/ad022304.html

 

If she goes to Yale, Columbia, or Stanford, you can expect to stay awake at night worrying bcus those schools are very close to or IN the Hood.

Hahvahd is in a great location & you can Pahk da cah

 

William,

I would have to disagree with Stanford, as that is in one of the preppiest areas of the country. Shopping malls and rich people abound in the neighborhoods of Palo Alto, and I assure you even parking a Bentley would be safe in the neighborhood of Palo Alto The biggest problem you might encounter at Stanford is you might not have the right fashion color sweater for the season or you are late for your croquet game.

 

LOL. I have to agree... it would either be the sweater, or not having a Porsche 911. I saw a lot of older 911's around the campus, among the countless BMW's, MB's, etc. Of course, for William, not having an exotic car (or 5) is not an issue ! East Palo Alto is the rougher area, but it seemed avoidable in 99% of daily life.

There is some nice housing around Yale too although New Haven isn't Malibu. The law school there was really cool - like an English castle. If she had a car she could live a mile or two over in the nicer areas around but not in New Haven. Although Columbia is only a few blocks from Harlem, it's in one of the safer alcoves of Manhattan (and law students were guaranteed housing in Columbia housing for about $900-1200/mo).

NYU was the one that really turned me off as far as locale - plenty of wierdos, dirt, and a distrubing amount of gay flags and gay porn stores around the campus. I have some friends at NYU though that ended up living down in Battery Park City (by Wall Street), and that is real nice (but at $2200/mo).

 

Interesting point about NYU. I did go to visit it over thanksgiving of last year, because like Dr. Tax, I thought it would be cool to go to law school in NYU, and then maybe join a large firm there. However after riding the subway, and getting off at the stop, and visiting NYU, I was thoroughly disgusted. It is not only dirty, and all the that you talk about, but I found the people to be "rough." Not rough in a attitude sense, but more like rough from eating bread out of the sewer. Sorry if I am offending anyone, but paying $$ to go to NYU, where I would have to put up with this stuff, was ridiculous imo.

As far as her having a car , did you not see whose daughter she is? I mean I would be surprised to see her rolling in anything less than a Jaguar XKR or a 996 C2

 

LOL! Yeah, I felt similar vibes there. After visiting I couldn't understand the people who choose it over Columbia. Especially given the facilities - although I guess NYU will have a whole new school next fall - but right now it's like comparing a modern, elegant corporate campus to a 50's high school.

I think you must have to be a REAL anti-capitalist bleeding heart to voluntarily make that choice.

 

I feel like you are my twin and this is the bizzaro world of Seinfeld !! Then I realize you are smarter, married to a stunningly beautiful woman, and have the H-bomb to drop. I need to put the crack pipe down, and step away from the computer before I start thinking you are my twin next time.