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Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by WILLIAM H, Dec 23, 2003.

  1. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

    Nov 1, 2003
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    A friend recently proposed the idea of setting up a jet charter service, outside the US for VIPs. We are thinking of picking up a 1979 Learjet 6 passenger or something like that. I just started investigating but I am sure the requirements for noise are nowhere near as tight as in the US so thats not a worry. I know I have to add in payments, mechanics & pilots fees, fuel, hangar fees, taxes. What other expenses am I looking at ? Thanks
     
  2. writerguy

    writerguy F1 Veteran

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  3. jordan747_400

    jordan747_400 F1 Veteran
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    Landing fees, tie down fees, navigation fees, and catering fees are more to consider.

    As far as the Learjet, it may be cheaper than another jet, but reliability, noise, and performance characteristics will quickly add up. Not to mention the most important thing --fuel consumption. Old Learjets eat fuel and that will be EXPENSIVE. Old Learjets dont have a "long" range anymore either. I would HIGHLY reccomend looking at a modern business jet. It will save a ton of money in the long run. A good jet for you to take a look at would be the Canadair Challenger. A good CL600 will run about 5 mil. but is entirely worth it over a 700k Learjet. More expensive yes, but it will be entirely offset by its greater range, MUCH better fuel consumption, and better reliability. As a modern jet, it has a "glass" cockpit rather than the dated analog systems on older aircraft. Much more pilot-friendly overall. Old Learjets really are quite small and if you are flying VIPs around, they will want more comfort --biggest interior with standing room, good food service, and better performance.

    If you would be flying into Europe, look at the JAA regulations (the counterpart to ICAO regulations over here). Europe actually has more stringent noise requirements than the US by far --another reason to consider a modern jet.

    Here are a few shots of the Challenger CL600 for you if you aren't familiar with the jet already. If money really is an issue, there are a few other cheaper, but modern, alternatives. Take a look at modern Learjets, and Cessna Citations. Modern jets WILL pay off in the long run.

    http://www.airliners.net/open.file/453266/M/

    http://www.airliners.net/open.file/422405/M/

    Hope it helps!
     
  4. jordan747_400

    jordan747_400 F1 Veteran
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  5. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    European noise requirements are generally more severe than those in the US. Additionally because of the congestion over the Atlantic, you will need additional avionics to be able to fly above FL 290, which is a necessity in a Lear if you want any kind of decent range.

    I'd be asking: what is the mission for th eplane? What do I need to accomplish that mission? Those are the important questions.

    Art
     
  6. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    On a tangent topic...

    Are there any good online communities for private pilot types? I couldn't find any and Flying didn't advertise any. I have several good names and it would be easy to set up another board. I wanted to see if there was any interest. I would advertise it in several of the magazines.
     
  7. jordan747_400

    jordan747_400 F1 Veteran
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    The website I frequent is www.airliners.net. There are MANY airline pilots and private pilots there. Although to some the guys may seem like die-hard aviation junkies, its a nice board with some variety.
     
  8. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    Landings.com is the aviation website that I use. It has just about everything you'll need, including a whole bunch of information.

    Art
     
  9. DallasGuy

    DallasGuy Formula Junior

    Oct 29, 2002
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    I used to work for a biz av consulting firm and the costs can vary by a VERY wide margin depending on where you set it up. If you are looking in Europe, the Lear could get quite costly with the various fees. If you pick up a model 35, the noise reqs shouldnt be an issue as much as say a 24/25/29 model with the old low bypass engines. Either way, our european friends have quite a tighten reign on the noise flying overhead than we do here in the states.

    If you are looking in S. America, the costs can be lower but it is a significantly smaller, albeit growing, market. Brazil is the primary hotspot down there right now for biz aviation. (plus you aren't looking at many noise or certification costs unless you are flying into the US)

    If you are looking at Africa/Asia/Australia, your market is going to drop significantly.

    Also, beware of some pretty steep competition in most of the major markets. Most of the small time operators simply put their plane on one of the big boy's charter certificate and let them take theur piece of the pie in return for little effort on the owner's part.

    Lastly, you might consider upgrading to a bigger plane like a challenger of Gulfstream, as Jordan mentioned. In the charter world, especially with VIPs, image is everything. They would much rather be flying on and seen arriving in some serious iron. (FYI a good used G2 can be had for just a few million these days and they usually have the highest return on per hour chartered).

    Hope that helps.
     
  10. caddyman

    caddyman Rookie

    Nov 20, 2003
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    The CL600 is a great plane, I fly a CL200 and CL700 three to four times a week for an airline. It is pretty much the same plane, longer and seats more, but looking in the cockpit you would not be able to tell the difference. It is an all glass cockpit and is a very capable all weather airplane. Great cabin room and comfort. It is one of the quietest airplanes out there and fuel efficient. The old Lear would use a lot of fuel and maintence would be more expensive than something more modern. Good luck with it.
     
  11. DallasGuy

    DallasGuy Formula Junior

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    By the way, I had several clients here in Dallas who were chartering out their $2-4 million Gulfstream 2's at about $4k an hour. A $1.5-2 million Lear 35 chartering out at $1500/hr. THe other thing to condier is that with the larger planes, you are likely to be booking longer flights at a higer return per hour. That equals more $ in your pocket at the end of the day as long as you keep your costs down. Just like an Fcar, there are some lemons out there and there are some gems no matter what type of plane you choose. Just be sure to do your homework.
     
  12. matkat

    matkat Formula 3

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    William have sent you a P.M.
    best regards
    Dave McGuire
     
  13. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Landings.com looks pretty professional. What do you think of something informal like FC just for private pilots to chat away? What kind of response do you think it would have?
     
  14. jordan747_400

    jordan747_400 F1 Veteran
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    a great response! Id join!
     
  15. RacerX_GTO

    RacerX_GTO F1 World Champ

    Nov 2, 2003
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    There is a company:
    http://www.skyjet.com/

    That offers empty seats for private jets. They have a vast database of flights and empty seats available. I haven't used them nor is this an endorsment, but throwing it out there to see what you guys may think.

    Let some other company with a private jet fit the bill for all the 'other' expenses, but if you want a jet all to yourself, I can see that point of view as well.

    What is that pilot saying.. You don't fly a Lear, you wear one! :)


    EDIT:
    I just had a thought... what stewardess/babe does William have in mind!
     
  16. TestShoot

    TestShoot F1 World Champ

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    Hey while you are at it do a freight thing for me, be a pal it and pick it up for me. It only weighs oh.. about two kilos.
     
  17. tvrfreak

    tvrfreak F1 Rookie
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    Is cargo not as lucrative? Slower, cheaper planes, no in-flight service issues...and being on time is not nearly so important.
     
  18. redhead

    redhead F1 Rookie
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    Only 2 Kilos, slow week? :)

    Rob, off your Idea, I would be intrested in what transpires. Since Jordan first posted Airliners.net, I have been on there all the time, but some of the stuff is a bit steep, aka, prof. pilots only it seems. ....So, something a little less may be cool. Ben, TVRfreak, and bobafet, we all talked about asking if you wanted to add a sub-fourm about planes/pilots as a lot of us have a true intrest in it. BTW, we did this as TVRfreak was showing us the weakness in security at SFO, and trying to tell the differnces between G5 and C-X's :

    R
     
  19. TestShoot

    TestShoot F1 World Champ

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    For personal use
     
  20. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Yes, I have one

    Studentpilot.com covers that pretty well (despite the name, it's not all sudent pilots. Get 'em hooked young, etc...). There's also other forums and mailing lists for many plane types, such as the Cessna 150-152 list that I'm on.

    You could try, but the market is pretty well saturated.

    I can't speak to the parent question of this thread, sorry.
     
  21. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Thanks guys, I'll look into a G2 :)
     

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