calls apparently answered_Ferraris to get smaller

It looks like the Ferrari V-12 is about to go the way of the rear engined Porsche into oblivion.

 

Hah - who are these guys trying to fool? This is such a ridiculous statement, that I fail to take the rest of the article serious...

 

I'm sure Colombo and Lampredi understood this too. But the old man wanted 12 cylinders because Packard had them. Ferrari's sub 3.3 litre V-12s never made any sense. The Maserati bros. clearly understood powertrain engineering with their postwar 2.0 to 3.7 litre straight sixes in regards to weight, fuel consumption, internal friction, etc. If the engine is large enough like the later F-cars, MBs, BMWs, then a V-12 is fine.

 

I really doubt it. I will make a case that about 95% of today's buyers no longer care about the gated shifter, the 12 cylinders, the current questionable styling, or any of the old legend. Most don't care if the v8 is a flat crank or not. Most will want an F1 transmission, and many will leave it to autoshift. Most are just simply buying "Ferrari", and will pay a big premium - V6 turbo, V8, V10, whatever they wait in line to get.

I didn't see much of an outcry, either with the buyers or the press, when Porsche abandoned its traditional air cooling, either.

This trend, if it should happen, really will make things like a Testarossa look like a relic from Jurassic Park.

And that is OK with some of us diehards...I am holding on to the old guy for just this reason. And ditto for my Porsche 993.

 

I love the idea of a hypercar. I understand the purists concerns but Ferrari seems to have a history of pushing forward when the rest of the world doesn't want to.

 

actually, this may be more the death-nell for 12 than friction [456 = too small of radiators, need better fans], or harmonics like the 10's somewhat fail at.

But like Porsches 'abandoned' air cooling was more a factor of needs for higher power and & emis. control than anything else.

Smaller engines, with better emissions, and more power to weight ,will be the deciding factor...not an need to abandon older technology. This may be why some are touting a so called Dino phoenix....

better pick up some 550s, 456s, and 575s while you can: they'll be in hot demand and current pricing will prove that out, gated or not. [I prefer the older gated -- I mean, isn't even Mazda offering a SUV with paddles?]

 

Like you say, I am really, really afraid we may be seeing the last of the King of Sports Motoring - the 12 cylinder Ferrari.

Were you referring to cooling needs on the death-nell of the 12? Surely they could just re-engineer the radiator system - make it big enough for the displacement of the engine no matter the number of pistons? My Testarossa can just idle along for a good long while in traffic with the A/C and never see more than around 195.

I didn't quite get the the harmonics of the 10 point, either - I maybe assume that you mean a 10 could achieve some pretty impressive sounds on its own to compete with a 12? They ARE pretty smooth, too - given modern dynamic balance methods.

Porsche's official word (IF I was given the straight talk) was that the heads could not be cooled adequately for four valves - they made a few water cooled heads with aircooled cylinders as racers or test cars, but it just seemed easier and more practical to go to the full water cooling. I submit that it was much more a question of power (keeping up with the others) than it was emissions. The last aircooled (the 993) had dual plugs per cylinder and easily passed emissions - but made only 285 hp with 3.6 litres, as opposed to the waterboxer with 3.4 litres and around 20 more hp. I was disgusted to see that they also did away with the true dry sump of the old 911 with the water cooling, too. More cost economies in play, probably.

Just don't get me started on the need for a Ferrari hybrid, though!

 

I believe you're thinking of Mitsubishi. Their Outlander SUV has paddles as does their economy car, the Lancer.

 

All of that makes me and baby jesus cry....

 

Its time to move on. The big V12 is a wonderful engine and always will be. But as technology advances and new materials come to market, you can now build a lighter car with a smaller engine, and get better performance results at the same time (Lotus Elise). Fuel economy will also be increased, and the use of fossil fuels decreased..which is better for all of us.

Ferrari can't be stuck in past for to much longer. They must progress into new areas of technology in order to remain at the top of the automotive world for performance cars. If this means going in a new technological direction, then they should.

 

DOH :| .... as much as I read the 'weekly mags' can't remember one from the next on those boxes.....even if well made.

 

TR seemed to do a better job of handling the cooling, thatn 456. Perhaps it was the oil cooler right up against the smaller radiator. IMO. that was a cost savings space at the cost of cooling the water. Either increase the fan [been thinking of installing a manual cut switch somewhere] or bigger radiator.

my understanding is that the 10 is much harder to balance at 'certain' RPMs than a 8, or 12. That at certain RPM [talking ONLY F1 here] the engine tends to be a real problem...but that's a narrow range. I would assume, new designs to get into the HP mode, would make for some interesting engineering in size and power. I'm not an engineer, so, just honorablly inciting others to inject knowledge... I guess.

Dated a Porsche Sales Mgr both what was NoBayArea and now....NorEast CA...won't mention names.
But, when talking to Porsche people there, they mentioned the problems with SMOG emis. etc. for newer engines and decided to just 'bite the bullet'...IF I were in the market for a Porsche, and I'm not, but, IF, I would opt for the air-cooled. They sound more Porsche like, they act a bit better, and I would feel like I was getting what Porsche seemed to do best: design a common thread car while sticking to a pre-WWII philosophy of air-cooled [VW-like] deal. That's great engineering. gotta hand it to them on that:
Ve Vill DO IT DIS VAY . <-- period
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Sounds like a good idea.

The F40 was one of the 1st production cars to use a carbon fiber/kevlar body, not sure if Porsche 959 was 1st

Its time for F to be an innovator again

The 599 is ok but its Huge & the 612 is a whale

an F w size & price similair to a 430 but w a cf tub would be awesome

Make a hybrid version to ensure F's future

 

Time to buy an F50

 

Rik, its time to stop drinking the aircooled koolaid. Former Porsche R&D engineer Jobst Brandt explains just how dumb both Porsche and VW were with these aircooled rattle traps. Enjoy. http://yarchive.net/car/porsche_vw_beetle.html

 

Let's put away the Kleenex and Poetry for Dummies book for a moment.

Lower weight is exactly where Ferrari needs to go, because it wins races. Nostalgia does not win races. Otherwise we'd be seeing front-engined, carburetted F1 cars with simple manual gearboxes.

With the regard to all the weeping over the V12: There are hundreds of V12 Testarossas on the market, depreciated down to 328/348 levels. Anyone can have a Ferrari V12 for the price of a lightly-optioned Porsche Boxster S. If you want the engine in the front because that's where sports cars had it during the LBJ administration, grab a 456 for the price of nice 328 (down from its MSRP in the low $200K range).

With regard to 'real' Ferraris and cylinder count: The F40 was arguably the pinnacle of modern Ferrari-dom, and Enzo's personal last hurrah. Count the cylinders. It's a zero b.s., non-fat car, a modern classic, did 200mph+ back in 1987(!!!), doesn't need its own IT department, and competes with any number of modern exotics. R&T this month tested a 2007 Murcielago that was almost as fast as the F40. Automobile just called the F40 one of the 25 best cars ever, and the V12 Enzo and V12 F50 ... well, they didn't make the list.

If sentiment is your main beef, that properly rests with the vintage cars. Even then some of the vintage V12s (365GTC/4 being one) sell for less than a common 360 Modena, so you can get a Colombo-designed twelve this week if you want one.

Back to your violin concerto for the V12...

 

Now that is an excellent post, agreed 100%

 

Yes it is (especially the part about the I.T. department

Still, I would love to own or at least drive a 12 banger some time (TR).

 

I dont think we have to give up V12s though, F just needs to make them smaller, after all in the 50s the Barchettas had 2.5 to 3.0 V12s

What about bringing back small high tech V12s, maybe w turbos or superchargers