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Cam Gear Locking Tool for quick belt changes

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Verell, Nov 28, 2004.

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  1. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #51 Verell, Aug 2, 2005
    Tnx krowbar,
    There is some tolerence by design, intended to handle mfg variation in cam diameter. I don't want to use the tolerence up in one direction by being 0.5mm off on the key center-center dimension.
     
  2. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    #52 Artvonne, Aug 4, 2005
    Maybe I'm tired and should sleep, but I get 5.166", or, 131.21MM. I will check again in the morning and get the cam diameter
     
  3. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #53 Verell, Aug 4, 2005
    Krowbar,
    How are you measuring?

    Best way I've come up with to measure centerline-centerline is to measure between inner edges, outer edges of cam bearing journal with the cam cap off, take 1/2 their sum. Or can do a similar pair of measurements for another cam machined edge like the end of the cam the cam drive gears slips onto.
     
  4. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

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    #54 carguy, Aug 4, 2005
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    I just found this thread....I guess great minds think alike. Here are the cam-wedges I made for doing the belts on my Testarossa.
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  5. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #55 Verell, Aug 4, 2005
    Nice machine work. Looks like you used Nylon?

    Conceptually the same as my initial concept pictured earlier in this thread. See JWise's post dated: 11-30-2004, 08:43 AM. Altho the workmanship is clearly better.

    BTW, it looks like the relatively inexpensive LISLE tool might work with those TR sprockets: http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/LIS-36880.html

    BTW,
    Kermit emailed me a 2V cam c-c meas't of 141 & a small fraction mm. Unless krowbar comes up with something different I'm going to go with 2 out of 3 data points & assume I was off 0.5mm & resume production.
     
  6. Owens84QV

    Owens84QV F1 Rookie

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    #56 Owens84QV, Aug 4, 2005
    Verell...I kind of got lost in the thread...did you say that you do or do not have a cam locking tool for the 4V? It would appear that the two-pieces of nylon would work perfectly to hold the cams.

    Also, what is the best / easiest procedure that you have for checking cam timing. The gentleman that did the belts prior to me was an excellent owner / mechanic, but after reading about your success rate on correctly timed cams, I definitely will want to check my timing this winter when my belts are due. I've got some stuff that I've downloaded off of F-chat, but thought I'd pick your brain on the simplest way to check my timing.

    Appreciate your help!
     
  7. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #57 Verell, Aug 4, 2005
    Don't yet have a 4V tool in production. Hope to have them available in late fall.

    My experience with the nylon prototype was that I had to glue a couple of strips of rubber to it to ensure that the cam's couldn't slip while tightening the cam gear bolts. Was dealing with plastic cam gears & didn't want to risk breaking them with a lot of clamping force.

    If I go with the dual fitted wedge design like my prototype & the TR one, i'll make it out of a fairly hard polyurethane.

    The other design would would engage the cam gear teeth, so would only put minimal force on the cam gears.

    As to checking 4V cam timing, you're going ot have to pull the cam covers & see if the cam marks line up with the marks on the inner edge of the front cam cap.

    I hope to make a tool that can be used with the marks on the back of the cam flange that the cam drive gears mount on, but that's also a ways out in time.

    If you want the utmost precision in setting cam timing, or want to use non-standard timing, you'll need to use a small diameter degree wheel & a dial indicator.
     
  8. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    #58 Artvonne, Aug 5, 2005
    Wow, I must have been more tired than I thought. I just plain messed up my figures, which in reality is okay, as I have taught myself to always take three measurments.

    At any rate, I have measurements of between 141.0806, to 141.1986. I cant get any numbers under 141, but nothing over 141.19 either, so 141 should be the number to use. Perhaps they left some extra for milling the top of the head if it were align bored? Perhaps 141 is the blueprint figure, and they gave us some extra metal to play with.

    On the camshaft area between the sprocket hub and seal jounal, I get a measurement of between 1.110 to 1.120 on one camshaft, I could measure all four if you feel its necessary, but as you got "about 28 mm" I would assume some wiggle room in your tool. It is a rough surface as you said, and on mine, the part numbers are rough and throw off the reading as well. Note however that I have P6 cams, and have no idea of the differences here in regard to stock cams.
     
  9. 4Webers

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    #59 4Webers, Sep 5, 2005
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  10. 4Webers

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    #60 4Webers, Sep 5, 2005
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    This picture shows the forward bank cam lock - the nut with the wrench on it is a bear to get on due to the poor access and forward belt tensioner. When I mentioned this to Verell, he had a great idea of using T-nuts that can be pressed into the wood of the smaller blocks and eliminating this difficulty.
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  11. 4Webers

    4Webers Formula Junior

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    #61 4Webers, Sep 5, 2005
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    This is a shot of my forward tensioner bearing - if you look closely you can see where the grease has bled out of it. It wasn't making much noise yet, but I'm sure it was just a matter of not much time before it had a nice meltdown.
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  12. 4Webers

    4Webers Formula Junior

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    #62 4Webers, Sep 5, 2005
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    These last pics are of the new belts going on. The binder clips help keep the new belt in place until you get the tensioner on. Just be careful with the edges of the clips - next time I'll put some tape on the clip faces for extra measure. If it weren't for the @#$@#$@% A/C removal/installation, I would almost consider this job 'easy' with these cam locks. Many thanks to Verell for the locks, not to mention his great technical support that came with them!
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  13. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #63 Verell, Sep 6, 2005
    Darrell,
    Congrats on your 1st 308 cam belt job!!! Glad they worked as represented!

    Tnx for the T-nut inspiration as well. Birdman & I had the same problem with tight clearance there. Just couldn't figure a way around it until we discussed it.
     
  14. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    #64 GrigioGuy, Sep 6, 2005
    Ver(ell)y cool.

    Let me know when you have a 328/QV design for sale.
     
  15. 4Webers

    4Webers Formula Junior

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    #65 4Webers, Sep 10, 2005
    Tillman, let me know if/when you get ready to change your belts, I'd be happy to lend a hand.
     
  16. Owens84QV

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    #66 Owens84QV, Sep 10, 2005
    Verell...I second Tillman, when you have a QV design for sale, please let me know!
     
  17. Steve King

    Steve King F1 Rookie

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    #67 Steve King, Sep 10, 2005
    I just bought one from anyautotools.com for $30 made out of plastic so they won't screw ups the plastic cam sprockets on the early 308's. Looks like it will do the trick but I won't know for sure until I do the next belt change. I do them every 15k just for kicks. Thats about 3 years.
     
  18. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #68 Verell, Sep 10, 2005
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    Hmm,
    This must be it:
    KD Tools: CAM CLAMP UNIV TIMING GEAR TOOL

    http://www.anyautotool.com/catalog/PHPCatalog/?function=detail&id=14097&price=29.95&qoh=8

    Looks like it might work for simple belt changes.
    A couple of things are going to be pretty tight:
    - The upper arms with the teeth will have fit below the belt.
    - The horizontal arm has to be short enough so it doesn't stick out past the edge of the cam gear & interfere with belt installation/removal.

    Doesn't look strong enough to lock the cams while breaking loose the cam gear retaining bolt tho.

    Still, hard to beat the price for just a quick belt change if it's usable.

    Steve, when you get yours, please post what you find out. I don't want to spend a couple of weeks developing a tool if something this cheap will do the job!
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  19. gordonh

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    #69 gordonh, Sep 10, 2005
    Verril,

    I would prefer a single bank at a time if it keeps the price down. I would pay up to the price for a comparable SnapOn tool. I really appreciate the work that you do for this group!
     
  20. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #70 Verell, Sep 10, 2005
    Gordon,
    From your profile you've got a '79 308. I already make a 2V tool, see pix & ordering info earlier in this thread.

    My production is shut down right now. We're re-doing the kitchen & I'm installing the old kitchen cabinets in the garage. (My wife says they're too good for a garage ;^) !!!)

    Send me eMAIL & let me know how soon you'll need the tool. Will let you know what I can do.
     
  21. Steve King

    Steve King F1 Rookie

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    #71 Steve King, Sep 11, 2005
    Verell , yep thats the tool. I don't know if it would work when you need to pull the timing gear bolts but as for a belt change it will do the trick. It does not look like it will interfer with the flange on the gear like the snap on tool does so I think it will work out OK. I havn't needed to do the cam seals yet so we'll see if it will work when they start to leak.
     
  22. chrismorse

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    #72 chrismorse, Sep 11, 2005
    Verell,

    I am "looking foreward" to doing a belt change this winter with your clamp set up, (no rush), but was wondering where the cam seal change fits in with the belt change.

    Would the proceedure be to get it down to the belts, install the locks, hit the center bolts with the impact, remove the cam drive sprockets & locks, the valve covers and seals, reinstall the seals, confirm cam alignment, reinstall the locks, then do the belts??

    curious,
    chris
     
  23. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #73 Verell, Sep 11, 2005
    Chris,
    You've got the idea. There are some niggling refinements, notably reinstalling the cam gear bolts, & torqueing them down...
    ;^)
     
  24. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    #74 Meister, Sep 11, 2005
    Here's a thought I've always had...

    But what about a tool that could utilize the "nut like" part (for lack of a better term) on the cam between the block and the cam sprocket?

    I would think that in theory when the engine is at TDC these "nuts" would be in the same orientation to each other every time?

    Thus (and I don't know the size) of the "nut" but if you cut the open ends off say 2 19mm(?) wrenches and then fabricated a metal bar or stay in such a way as the open ends of the wrenches could simply "slip" on to the nuts and thus lock the cams in place?

    I think only 2V engine have this feature so it would be model specific, but the ability to simply "slip" something onto the nuts could have an appeal.

    The tool from this thread is a great idea, I'm just throwing out some ideas.
     
  25. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #75 Verell, Sep 13, 2005
    Looked at this early on. There dosen't seem to be a guaranteed alignment between the cam timing & the hex pattern on the 2V cams. The pattern is actually a series of cylindrical surfaces, not a flat hex. Also, such a tool would be pretty pricey.

    IMHO, Unobtainium Supply's 2V cam lock solves the 2V service needs.

    Umm, this thread references several tools depending on how far back you go. Which one are you referring to?
     
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