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cam shaft fitting and cam seal help please "328 Euro"

Discussion in '308/328' started by Milkshaker0007, Oct 5, 2019.

  1. derekw

    derekw Formula Junior
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    Sep 7, 2010
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    Paul, Maranello Classic parts here in the UK may lend you the jig. Are you going to adjust valve clearances? If not, at least check with a feeler gauge that none of them are far off-- worth it for completeness and peace of mind :)
     
  2. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Derek,

    How DARE YOU !!!

    Just that, is a 10 Minute Job !!!!!

    :eek:




    :D
     
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  3. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2004
    7,286
    LOL!
     
  4. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2004
    7,286
    Certainly pointless to worry about cam timing if you don't set the clearances.
     
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  5. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    290
    Afternoon all,
    I fully agree, I used camshafts timing marks and flywheel TDC as specified by the manufacturer and runs ok. Could I get more performance?...Maybe, but the manufacturer set the timing marks, not me.

    Another issue, when I had my engine completely apart ( no heads, no liners, no pistons nor rods in place, just the block, crank, rear cover and flywheel installed)
    I noticed that the 1-4 TDC notch and pointer are very accurate, at least on my engine. No special tools needed, I could see the crank from above and measured the clearance on both sides of the journal to the block bore...moved it back and forth until it was exactly in the middle... Guess what? the pointer was accurate.

    One last point, it would be silly not to check the valve clearance at this stage and adjust accordingly. Makes a big difference on how smooth and quiet the engine runs.

    Just my opinion,

    John.
     
  6. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    290
    Hello Paul,
    Question... Did you measure the valve clearance before removing the cams? This simplifies the work a lot, because with the belt off, you can spin the camshafts easily.

    Just my opinion,

    John.
     
  7. Milkshaker0007

    Milkshaker0007 Formula Junior

    Sep 22, 2012
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    Paul
    Hi John
    They were done 3000 miles ago but yes I have found just one slightly out so far on my exhaust valve rear which I will sort

    Reading my WSM 328 it states intake cam should be 0.20-0.25 tolerance and exhaust cam should be between 0.35-0.40
    This is a US Version WSW offline.
    No work done today, having a break :)
     
  8. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    Feb 24, 2006
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    Hi Paul! First of all don’t be afraid as that’s what jig are for, it’s to guide you so you will not make a mistake, second is, it is not about free flowing or having blockage, it’s about relocating the the drain hole. For example, if you look at the hole of the rear bank exhaust drain hole, it s not only smaller but it’s position to about the “4 o-clock” which is not the lowest part which is why you have the puddle of oil just sitting there and cause for an oil leak. The jig allows you to drill a hole at the lowest parts which is the 6 o’clock position which eliminates the oil from sitting there and not drain. Pic shows the the new hole on the right, note the camera is not positioned right but the new hole is at the 6 o’clock now.
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  9. Freddie328

    Freddie328 Karting

    Jul 29, 2013
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    If your looking for an alternative to replace those pesky O rings, I've been told this guy can supply as below:
    X-Rings:

    4 off Viton Quad Ring size BS330 (4330 )

    £ 3.80 each Delivery: Approx 1 week

    Mark Newton
    E-A-P International Ltd
    Tel: 01706 624422
     
  10. derekw

    derekw Formula Junior
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    "...Pic shows the the new hole on the right," The new hole is actually the one on the left.
     
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  11. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    Correct. Here you can clearly see that the new hole is now on the lowest part which is the 6 o’clock position so no more oil being collected on that spot.
     
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  12. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    By the way, I believe this mod only applies to the four valves only, also the jig that was normally been loaned by Ricambi (Daniel) is no longer being loan out unless, you buy the timing belt and valve cover gasket from Ricambi and that’s the only way you can barrow the jig.
     
  13. Milkshaker0007

    Milkshaker0007 Formula Junior

    Sep 22, 2012
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    Hi Mike
    Thanks for the pictures and explanation, it's makes perfect sense that the oil should drain at the lowest point and away from just sitting and pooling up- thus causing to leak.
    Can this be done with engine still in?
    Is there room.

    I will ring around some ferrari specialists this morning and see if they have a jig for this procedure.

    Is there any actual data/PDF on this procedure I can look at please and see what's what.
    Thanks Again Mike,
    Paul
     
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  14. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2004
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    I want to apologize to FBB and to the group for going off on the cam timing thing. As I have said, I don't believe it is necessary if you know the car was ok to start with. Belt swapping doesn't change things significantly. Others, like FBB strive for perfection. That's fine too.
     
  15. Freddie328

    Freddie328 Karting

    Jul 29, 2013
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    Presumably this work has to be done with the head off, otherwise how do you remove the swarf left over in the engine?
    Also, the extra hole doesn't solve the issue of O ring pinch where it meets the cam cover gasket.
    If the head isn't coming off I think it would be safer to use X rings and sealant around the point where O ring/cam cover gasket are sealed.
    I did this some years ago on mine, and so far no more oil leaks.
     
  16. Freddie328

    Freddie328 Karting

    Jul 29, 2013
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    I'm not sure if this is a good idea unless the head has been removed. Isn't there an inevitable collision of valves and pistons?
     
  17. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    290
    Afternoon Paul,
    Yes, of course, but since the belt is off, you can rotate the crank just as well.
    What I do (if I have to remove the cams) is check the clearance before removing the cams, write it on a piece of cardboard, and with the cams off, you can easily remove shims and install proper one needed( check shims with micrometer, don't "assume" the number painted on the inside is accurate.
    These engines allow +/- 0.05mm, that ain't a big margin. Try to leave all valves at the highest gap, for example; if clearance is supposed to be 0.20 +/- 0.05, leave it at 0.25.

    Just my idea,

    John

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  18. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    290
    Paul, by the way, I have a bunch of shims, if the size you need id in my "coffee can" just let me know.
    Also to mention, is that, although the manufacturer states that the shims cannot be "shaved" in order to get the clearance, guess what?... Yes they can.

    If you need more info, let me know.

    John.
     
  19. Milkshaker0007

    Milkshaker0007 Formula Junior

    Sep 22, 2012
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    Update
    Thanks for the offer John for those shims.yes I did a must worse drawing than that for mine those.
    Have ordered some from super performance with some new steel braided metering fuel lines as looks like my garage have been bending them over and causing kinks when they done clearances before so I'll get those sorted while I'm in there.

    After making further research into drilling a larger hole into my engine, I'm going to pass.I'm worried about all the bits swark, I can't see a way of getting all of that out safely with the head coming off, so NO.
    Good idea but in the end I'll pass but thanks for the suggestion.

    I've only managed to get one of my cams back in today and torqued up to 8.8nm (WSW says 6.5ft-lbs)
    I've struggled to keep everything in line whilst I try to tighten the caps up without the Cam moving, it's very hard without an extra hand or some sort of tool. But I'll get there, slowly but surely-no rush just got to make sure I do it correctly.

    On a funny note, I did some cleaning.
    started to clean the cam covers with hot soapy water and a stiff brush, didn't move much grime at all
    Wife was out so popped them in the dishwasher instead.
    Came out really well :)


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  20. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2014
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    A couple of points:

    With the belts off I wouldn't go spinning the cams individually. Although you can turn the crank to a position where none of the pistons on that bank are at TDC and in danger of interference you also don't want to fully open the intake valves on a cylinder in which the exhaust valves are fully opened (since you would only be turning one of the cams) So if you want to check clearances in this method you should have only one cam installed ensuring that all of the opposing valves are closed.

    As for the drain hole, I wouldn't worry about it. The only thing it is going to do is lessen the amount of residual oil that would leak out after shut down from a cam seal carrier o-ring that was already leaking at a point lower than the standing residual level. If you don't have an o-ring that is leaking on it's lower half then this mod does nothing. If you do have a leak there it only lessens the residual leak, it's still gonna leak when it's running. It is, after all, just a drain hole, not a pressurized area. Not worth the fuss.
     
  21. derekw

    derekw Formula Junior
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    The drain hole is not that critical but for anyone finding this discussion I thought I'd mention that the drill come out near the one head nut so you can place a vacuum cleaner hose there which will catch the swarf as the drill comes through. You can protect the entry side with a plastic sheet/bag and some masking tape.

    Put a folded piece of paper under one cam cap and tightened to stop it rotating. A long ratchet or breaker bar onto the pulley nut makes it easier to keep from turning while tightening.
     
  22. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    Paul, yes this can be done with the motor in the car. 1st pic is me doing it in the car, 2nd pic shows another guy doing it in his car, and 3rd pic just to show you what the jig looks like. There’s really no instructions for it, just place and lock the jig in place and there’s a guide hole in the jig where you insert the drill bit to drill through, sorry I forgot the size of the bit but I can get that for you later if you like.
     
  23. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Three Time F1 World Champ
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    All is cool with me, John.

    :)
     
  24. Milkshaker0007

    Milkshaker0007 Formula Junior

    Sep 22, 2012
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    Paul
    All cam shafts now back in and torqued down correctly and both new Hills tensioner bearings and belts fitted.
    BUT
    The rear belt is perfectly tensioned and travels great
    but for some reason the front cam belt is just slack/little sloppy, I've done the ferrari method and the verell method but for some reason I can't get enough tension into this side.

    Will take off again in morning and clean tensioner unit and re grease unit and try again as I'm calling it a night now.
    If you have any ideas let me know.
    All marks are still lined perfectly on cam shafts and crank TDC is spot on
    Thanks for you replys previously guys appreciated
     
  25. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2004
    7,286

    Have you tried rotating the engine and stopping it at other positions than TDC and checking the front belt for slack?
     

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