CAMBELT REPLACEMENT EXPOSED

Thanks.

Now, would the average Ferrari Owner benefit from a simple timing belt tension sensor in any of the above cases?

 

I replaced my belts at 12k, and 5 years on my 2000, 550. As expected, the old belts, tensioners, seals showed no undo wear or issues .....

 

So Dave's car ran fine for 21 years with the original belts.

My dad's has done 25 years, and is still going.

Does anyone have any other stories about how long the belts can last?

Does this help answer your original question, Glassman?

 

What he would benefit from is a competent mechanic in the first place. Sensors can't substitute for quality work. A mechanic that sloppy is just as likely to disable the sensor.

 

I'm rebuilding my 77 308 motor that had burned pistons. Doing all the labor, sending out for machining the things I cant do, I will have a total of about $4000 in parts and labor, all else is my time only, for whatever thats worth. How driving the car until the belt snaps would save me money I cannot conclude. How someone could think of owning a Ferrari and not service the car I also cannot conclude.

But we can obviously conclude the following. Some people will go to any length to NOT service thier Ferrari (or any other car) and will try almost any technology or device, possibly spending countless hours of time and any amount of money to allow them to continue not servicing thier car. Mr. Ferrari's disdain for his customers, many of whom he felt only wanted a show peice, seems to be justified.

The Ferrari has smaller timing belt pulleys which make the belts turn in tighter radiuses than most any other car. The Ferrari runs at much higher engine speeds than most any other car. Both of those factors will shorten the belts life, not to mention engine heat, oil, coolant, etc. Some people could drive these cars around and never rev the motor over 5000 rpm, others are always driving with higher engine speeds. Now add in that the belt you buy has been sitting on a shelf for God only knows how long, and you have so many factors that to make any reasonable theory as to belt life expectancy seems impossible.

Somewhere I read an article, and I apologise that I cant recall which car it was, but in testing Ferrari found a stock timing belt was getting loose under race conditions and they went with a higher performance belt. So obviously, how we drive and where we live will also have a factor on belt life expectancy. It is my firm belief that many of the people who lost a motor to a broken belt will remain silent. Those who have mistakenly admitted doing so, were ostracized by some other enthusiasts for allowing it to happen, some so badly they left these sites and never returned. Now that many of the original owners of these cars have passed the cars on, and now that many of those cars have had repeated belt changes, the numbers of cars breaking belts is probably greatly reduced.

IMO, from all I have seen in over 35 years playing with engines, being a mechanic, etc., and from all I have gained reading on Ferrari and being around them, I would say 2 years or 15K miles on aggressively driven cars, and possibly 5 years and 30K miles on mildly driven cars. Sound fair? Maybe we should elect a panel of experts, and find a happy medium we all agree to, and make it the Bible statement as to when a belt should be replaced.

 

Hi,

Does anyone know the spec (value) for timing belt tension on a 308? I do not see anything in the GT4 shop manual concerning this....

Thank You,

Anthony

 

Goodness, Ferrari's can get loose belts!

Who woulda thunk it?!

Perhaps we need timing belt tension sensors after all...

 

I absolutely understand the purpose of the thread. But what I am saying is that no amount of discussion will ever change some peoples minds, and some people will continue to drive these cars until a belt snaps. There are so many different enviroments, and so many different driving styles, I do not believe anyone could determine the belts ultimate life expectancy. Now throw in the age of the belt BEFORE you install it, and we will never have a clue.

 

No one is a bad underfunded Ferrari owner, at least not in the timing belt arena, as I am sure that even if one of us isnt comfortable changing our own belts, someone on here is, who may be close enough to help. The belts are cheap, and if just done as a maintainance item, could be replaced without opening up the engine or using a degree wheel and dial indicator. Even my engine with P6 cams has enough leeway I could be off a quite a few degrees and not worry of any damage, and probably not any great difference in power. If your car runs fine now, you could chalk your pulleys, take off your belts, and reinstall a new belt, keeping your marks aligned, and be running in no time. Obviously R&R'ing the engine would make it tougher, but once you did it, the next time would be faster, and if you compared it to an annual inspection like you would be forced to do on an airplane, it wouldnt be that bad. Get in there and degrease everything, tidy it up......

I look upon the Ferrari I own, as not only my life long dream, but a pure bred racing car that just happens to be streetable. I cant afford a lot, and so, I do all my own work. But the car, in my mind, needs service on a level befitting a racing car, not some minor road car like a Honda, and I will do my best to provide that service. I would imagine a car like an F-40, or a GTO, would get a belt change after every race as a matter of course. Now if I break a belt at 12,000 miles, and Joe breaks one at 90,000 miles, anyone care to take the average?

What if we all got our heads together and said something like 10-15K miles or two years, for aggressively driven cars, and longer, perhaps up to 30K or 5 years for mildly driven cars, but every two years for garage queens, or any car stationary for more than 4 months at any time in that period?

 

here you go.

[email protected]

I do not know if he is making the clamps for resale yet or if what he had was just a prototype.
hth
chris

 

The WSMs all state that the tensioner springs automagicly apply the correct tension.

The rule-of-thumb for a check is that you should be able to twist the long section of the belt about 45-55 degrees. Any less & it'll be too tight & tensioner & CAM drive bearings will fail prematurely. 80-90 degrees or more & it'll be too loose & vibrate a lot in running, could skip a tooth or 2 under sudden engine speed changes.

 

Just bought a 1995 F355 Belinetta July 1st. The car had 39,000 miles with no belt changes or 30k service. I flew into Florida to pick it up & drove it 16 hours and 1000 miles straight home to St.Louis. This F355 was no garage queen. Daily driver for over 3 years. I have seen studies on rubber's lifespan done in aircraft & the conclusion is that rubber used last much longer than rubber not used. My mechanic looked at the belts today & said they were in good shape & said he didn't see any of the signs needed to warrant a change at this time. I'm changing the belts in two weeks because of other maintenance requiring the engine to be dropped. But I wouldn't be changing the belts otherwise. So my F355 missed its 30k sevice by 3 years & 9000 miles. My response to that was to drive it 16 hours straight & put an additional 1000 miles on the car. Conclusion: Belts Good! Interior Plastic: Bad!

 

Ric's is the best available. It along with the parts book was more than sufficient for my first belt change.

I've been collecting pix & slowly updating my copy for the 4V engines, will eventually finish & post it as will as plan to eventually include it in my Haynes type 308/328 service manual.

308 Cam Belt Change
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56702

Both are better than a car that's not getting run at all. Often is subjective, let's assume it's run or the crank turned some 1/week.

I think that run a 1000+ miles/year uniformly spread around the calendar is best as it flexes the belts the most & also ensures there's no set taken. ie: A daily driver, not pushed hard/tracked.

Either of the above should deal with the belt set issue. IMHO, 5Yrs/30K miles belt replacement for either case.

BTW, my car is typically off the road from late October until early April. However, during that time I'm working on it off & on, so I the engine gets rotated some (not necessarily started), at least every other month. I typically put on ~2.5K-3K miles/year.


I change the belts at 5 year intervals, or slightly sooner if I've got to pull the A/C compressor and/or belt cover(s) for some other service as 80% of the work for a belt change is pulling the A/C compressor & cam belt covers.

I change the tensioners when I change the belt, as I don't trust sealed bearings to last more than 8-10 years under substantial load & engine temps.

Even if I tracked the car a couple of times/year I'd stay with 5Yr/30K miles.

BTW, while you have the belts off, check the timing drive shafts for play & replace the outer bearing if you can feel them move. Also, I strongly recommend changing the outer timing drive bearings at 10years. They're permanently sealed/lubricated & under heavy load. Pushing them to 15 or 20 years is risking their failure, resulting in having to change the inner ones as well as well as the belt jumping teeth.

 

Absolutely.

One final point to note about belt replacement.... some of the cost is off-set with better re-sale prospects (through better service history). Whether financial or ease of finding a buyer.

And for No doubt.....

No, A tensioner would require a warning light. And Ferrari owners have never paid much notice of them, due to the amount of false signals!! Imagine the threads on here.... "My 1-4 bank 'cambelt loose' light is on, what now?"

 

Phil,
One of us must be off of our feed lately, we seem to be in complete agreement all thru this thread(LOL)!!!

Think you're right on about the tensionsers & general treatment of warning lights.

 

Glassman - Your comments concerning this and other threads vis-a-vis belt replacement are greatly appreciated. There has been insightful discussion. One thought, however. Your most recent comment quoted below

"...this is really pretty cheap insurance..."

is not quite accurate. In the case of a 12 cylinder, to spend $8,000 to save $24,000 is not inexpensive as far as insurance goes. Furthermore, you are really spending $8,000 to save $16,000, as you will have spent the $8,000 difference pursuing either approach.

As mentioned in my earlier comment, from an engineering perspective there is simply no justification for the schedule promulgated by Ferrari. I maintain that this schedule is an attempt to shift the burden of "reliability" from Ferrari to the consumer, at the expense of the consumer. If the recommended schedule were 10 years or 100,000 miles, then more belts would break. This would tarnish the reputation of Ferrari. To avoid this, they promote more frequent service. If a manufacturer produces 100,000 automobiles per year, a few percentage points of failure is hidden in the "background" noise. When you produce 10,000, word gets around quickly.

But, hey, if everyone sleeps better, what the heck. It's your money. I prefer that we attribute this expenditure to obsessive-compulsive behavior rather than a logical decision [tree].

Thanks for an interesting thread.

Jim S.

 

Jim... I just dont get US pricing. US$8000 for an engine out 12cyl 30k belt sevice?? Are you sure?? It's about AUD$3000 ($2000US) here.....

It's important to separate repairs from servicing to keep realistic prices being bandied around.

 

It's an ultra conservative maintenance schedule. Other makes go further on even longer belts (e.g. the 82.5 inch long Porsche 928 timing belt goes for 5 years and 60,000 miles even on their tracked cars), though all of the other makes seem to have timing belt tension sensors.

And that sensor is probably the difference. Without that tension sensor (a $15 part), you've probably got to err far on the side of caution by replacing belts often (e.g. 3 years and 30,000 miles).

When you consider the cost of belt failure (i.e. $20,000+), it would probably make financial sense to add a $20 web cam, a strobe LED, and a timing belt tension sensor to our engines...because...even F-car owners have reported loose belts in as little as 6,000 miles (far in advance of the maintenance schedule).

Nor do I care if some or most F-car owners would ignore a tension sensor warning light (or a picture of a cracked tooth on a belt web cam). If they ignore such things, that's simply their money and their F-car that they've trashed...whereas such early warning systems wouldn't be ignored by me.

Other options (always dissed by the F-car regular posters) would be a 2nd timing belt itself...perhaps even on the rear of the engine. Redundancy could be built in, preventing one timing belt failure from being catastrophic. In fact, two timing belts on the front could be made to overlap in such a way that if they had half the correct number of teeth, that the teeth of one belt could go through holes in the other belt...with either belt failing no longer being catastrophic. Put together, two of such belts could function as one correct belt. a simple circuit could alert the driver that one of the two belts had failed long before engine damage became inevitable. Sadly, such out-of-the-box thinking tends to be ridiculed.

But why not make the timing belts out of better materials (e.g. mylar/kevlar/nylon), with redundancy, with warning sensors?! Why let a $100 part ruin a $20k engine after 6,000 miles?!

 

What would it cost me in time, insurance, and money to ship a 348 to Australia and back to the states?

 

It's possibly a viable solution, but I think you'd get to use your car for longer if you serviced at where you live.

Whether it's my suppliers or customers, I expect and supply an itemised invoice with every element broken down to show costs, so that you can tell what is servicing and what is repairs.

Eg... blasting and/or repainting cam and belt covers is not a service job, but it's sensible to do it. Brakes and clutches are not service items, but frequently required. Water pumps are not service items, but again, it's sensible to coincide them with big jobs. Even belt tensioner bearings are not a service item.

Your service shop should be able to give estimates for all these things, and hopefully realistic figures will prevail.

Even so, I've frequently done very large service/repair jobs and the figures don't match US reports. Somebody is being greedy and unfair. Or I just don't understand US overheads and general economy.