can a 430 motor be put in a 360?

I notice both have a single solenoid controlling the variator(s). So, I wonder, is it one signal or two from the brain? In other words, do they kick in a differing times, each controlled by a separate signal?

 

Never bothered to know. Not a huge hurdle in either event.

 

Intake and exhaust cams are controlled separately.

 

Thanks.
So, in the 430, the solenoid is signaled to open separately the passages to each variator at different rpms?

 

Every car that I've had access to ecu parameters that has intake and exhaust variators use separate maps for intake and exhaust cam base angle plus separate tables for wide open throttle or cam phasing vs variable intake manifold and also barometric pressure.

While I have not seen an F430 calibration I cannot imagine having separate variators but locking their function to one output. Could not maximize potential that way.

To run off of a 360 ecu I think you would need to mechanically lock the exhaust variators and also have access to changing the parameters to re-calibrate for the new engine. (assuming it has the same crank and cam output or that would need to be reconfigured as well)

 

Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

 

As the old adage goes:

"Speed is just a question of money! - How fast do you want to go?"

 

Oh please, it's easy with the variators. The 360's opens at what 3500 RPM? If you don't know the 430's point just tie a measurement into the variator wire and correlate voltage to the RPM. Its a binary signal to the variator solenoid. Open at XXXX RPM. Close below.
You could probably even do a controller with an Arduino and a solid state relay although I can't imagine why it would be that hard to take the wiring harness and engine out of a 430 wreck and mount it on a 360. Best part of the whole shebang would be to get rid of the stupid alarm system and immobilizer in the 360!

 

Variators are just that, infinitely variable within their + - range not just "on" or "off".

 

Hunh?

Per the WSM It's a simple solenoid valve (two wires in..). Apply voltage into solenoid and it opens, that provides oil pressure and the variator on the exhaust cam advances. If there was any variation in pressure into the variator I would "presume" they would have put a potentiator on the solenoid to determine advancement and opening size.

 

Sheesh Curt, Hows Charlston doing this fine evening? I have this vision of you sitting there with like 5 different Ferrari tech books open!

 

Someone needs to jusr convert a 458 to a manual. Electronics be damned

 

Your assumption of how this operates is rather simplistic.

Ecu sends PWM signal to actively control variator phasing. So you need several maps in the ecu programmed to cover all operating conditions, actively command cam timing while checking commanded vs actual via cam vs crank sensor inputs.

No potentiometer needed. This isn't a dimmer switch on your bathroom light, it is constantly comparing cam vs crank position to know real time cam position.

You want to control this with a stand alone relay independent of the engine management system? Best of luck with that

 

Sure just ring up Eldor...
I'm just gonna let you explain it why this idea is a fools errand I'll sit back and grab some popcorn. The complexity of engine management and vehicle dynamics is staggering as you know, esp with integrated components all the way up to and including chassis stability management.

I was recently watching a tech vid on the Alfa 4C, the suspension is tied into the engine management to control boost along with the differential and a slew of other minor corrections and controls thru out the network. Now imagine trying to sort all that out in a "swap" ..... Uhhh no thanks! Though that 4C is neat little thing, really tempted to get one...

 

So, the single two-wire solenoid controls the oil flow to intake and exhaust cam variators independently via commands from the ecu? And the volume (or pressure?) of that oil flow dynamically determines the degree of advance or retard of the cams? Is that possible? I'm confused.

 

On 360 it's open or closed. 430 variators work differently...

 

I was thinking the 360 variator... On more research you're right! It is more complicated.

While Ferrari has like NO info on the 7.2 system I did find some information on the landrover spec sheet. They used the intake cam timing as an example. With lower RPM its open. Then as the RPM increases, the valve opens and closes with a binary signal. This signal varies with the RPM range according to map programmed into the ECU. They describe it as a variable open close solenoid where I presume that the length of the input signal will determine the extent of the actuation of the solenoid and which holes (there are three) are plugged and to what extent the cam timing range is retarded. The system takes into account the cam position input signal and the camshaft input signal to deduce the actuation of the solenoid.

Very interesting solution and more complicated that I thought. I still think that it might be possible to fabricate an Arduino solution if the sampling rate and response rates were high enough from the cam sensors and other inputs. Also not sure if the processor speed and memory would accommodate the mapping data. And yes, a digital relay might work for simple open close but would likely not be fast enough for the pulsed signal.

 

You know, one could just do away with the variable cam timing altogether and just tune the engine to run accordjngly. Basically dumb down the ecu. The 360 and before models didn't use it - I don't consider an on off switch for the exhaust cam to be "variable" on the 360. It's more like a variable cam replication scheme like the 3rd intake valve on the 360 and 355. One would give up some performance at certain rev ranges, but one could tune the engine to where you want to drive it. Old school dudes.

 

I looked into it. Can be done, BUT 100k and will not pass smog. I gave up.

Art

 

What did they do for the rear transmission? I presume used a california shifter and transmission?

 

I think he was just going to adapt the existing tranny to manual, but it would affect the emissions, etc.

Art

 

Thanks Art! (This is something I've been interested for some time.. )

 

I talked to MoTec about swapping F430 ECUs they indicated a few things Just one of the new m1 ECUs would run the F430 motor BUT the stated the have a dual M1 setup up for the Lamborghini hurcan https://www.milspecwiring.com/Dual-M142-Lamborghini-Huracan-PNP-Kit_p_2688.html My “guy” has years of tuning and install experience and is a race engineer for a well known road racing team He got an evil grin when I asked if he would like to convert my F430 from the Bosch to MoTec m1s. Couple tunings like economy, butt buster and an in between tuning sooooo that led to - well if I have 41k miles on it perhaps a set is stroker pistons with all the tricks should go in (titanium rods$$$) or I might swap them out. I’ll keep updates coming if he goes nuts and says yeah let’s go for it (he knows Ferrari tuners etc) so it’s possible. Sure would be nice to go to one very featured ECU that’s programable the MoTec engineer was very confident all the ECU functions would be replicated etc plus fresh modern fast thinking Processing. My RSA Porsche ECU was below toad level, a MoTec fixed that puppy that car loved the MoTec

 

I love the 360 as well and have been tempted by the 430 engine. Ultimately, though, I think the most realistic path is pulling weight out of the 360. Because of their use in racing, there are LOTS of carbon fibre panels available. Depending on your state, there is more power to be made by the 360, as well. I may do that personally at some point.

I live in Palm Springs, CA and there is a body shop in Palm Desert name, improbably, World Class Collision and Jack's Body Works. http://www.jacksbodyworks.com/
Jack used to be in a smaller shop and then moved to his present location which is like NASA. They are an authorized repair facility for almost every high end manufacturer, Rolls Royce, McLaren, etc.

Jack put a 430 front end on a personal 360 he owned and I don't think it was a huge deal, so it is probably possible to rebody a 430 as a 360. He has done work for me on several occasions and his standards are incredibly high. BTW, tell him David Christian sent you if you call.

 

The 430 is a better car than the 360 in all areas. Just like the 355 was a huge leap over the 348. Yes..same chassis, but so much better all around. Just by the 430.