Can a car be too good?

I dont have a lot of seat time in Ferrari's, and outside of a gentle ride with an old man in a TR that he never allowed to rev above 2500 rpm, everything else was a 308. But after almost 25 years of reading everything printed on a 308, once I got my turn I found everything I had read to be pretty true. Things like the learning curve of the shifter, the gorilla position you need to sit in it, etc. But long before I ever rode in one, I knew I wanted a carbed car. I have ridden in and driven both a 308 GTSi, as well as a QV GTSi. Further refined, smoother, slower, quieter. I have never been in a 328, but everyone says its even more refined over a QV. Well, maybe I like cars a little ballsy and rough, instead of all refined and smooth and quiet.

Porsches. Well, I have only driven a few 911's. The cars have always given me the feeling of a chopped and customised Beetle. Well made of course, like any VW, but that in the end is what it feels like. I even drove a 98 996 Carrera, or whatever model it was. It was dark and keys were offered, i drove it. Drove it way to fast too. But even after not being around a VW for years, thats what it felt like. Even sounds kinda like one. This is not meant to poke fun at them or belittle anyone who likes them, I do like them myself. I could almost even think of owning a 911 if I could only get that picture of 1 million little screws and nuts and washers in boxes and containers out of my mind. But the newer Porsche was so smooth and quiet copared to an old 911, it lost alot of the fun.

I guess computers build cars now, and with cad/cam programs that analise every vibration and designs shock absorbtion and sound deadening to tune everything out, we end up with these antiseptic cars that feel dead. Yesterday while sitting in the 308 waiting for a train to pass, I sat there feeling the engine pulsing through the car. When I nail the pedal, its so open and loud through the passenger window, I just about swear I can hear the intake valves snapping shut. You can hear the gears whine. You feel the road through the steering like a guitar string. Its tight, yet smooth. Its soft, yet solidly connected at the same time. I am afraid things will only continue to go the direction they are moving. No one could probably sell something as rough as an old 308 or 911 today. Nobody would buy it.

 

The car that always defined "too good" for me was the Acura NSX. I drove one up one of my favorite canyon streets and was kind of bored and unimpressed (and being a classic car snob was predisposed to feel that way), but then I looked at the speedo and realized that I was going a lot faster than I had ever gone up the street before in my fast-as-holy-hell 1974 Pantera. But in the end, the greater capability of the NSX didn't matter; the car left me uninvolved. Call it machismo or whatever, but driving a car that my Mom could drive fast is just unappealing.

I actually had not driven any contemprary sports cars until very recently. I drove a new 911 and a newish 360 Spider on an autocross track. I have to say that the 911 was impressive, its scalpel-like handling pretty astonishing (and, still being a car snob who dislikes the idea of a water-cooled 911, was predisposed to not like it). I have always figured the Modenas would be way too much car to really use - another defination of a car that's "too good" (what's the use of having a car that you can only use a fraction of its performance?). Anyway, I was surpised at how hard I was able to push the 360 and how snappy and rough it was – very fun, very edgy, very Italian - and suprisingly usable.

And, for me, a lot more fun than the electric-motorish 911 - - but I now certainly have a lot more respect for the 911.

 

No doubt the older cars have more involvement and feel. Many Porsche people think the 993 was really the end of the line for a 911s that actually sound right. Maybe so.

I have a 328 now. Apart from those of us who don't mind hearing the engine roaring away right behind our head, watching gauges, warming up the gearbox the right way, and feeling around for the cool-ish draft coming from the a/c vents, I don't think many people now would tolerate a car as raw as a 328 (or 308). On the plus side, you can use a lot of its capabilities on public roads without endangering life and limb. It looks and sounds great, but it certainly isn't "too good" to be interesting. You can have drama on an off-ramp if you're not paying attention.

I'd agree with the newer Porsches being beyond anything most of us need or can handle, and so maybe 'too good'. I haven't driven the 997. The 996 was a MUCH more forgiving car than its predecessors, and comfortable. You really can go 100 without hanging up the cell phone or putting down the latte. In that sense, it's "too good" to be exciting in normal driving conditions. I think tires, engine, braking and suspension technology have gotten to the point where you can make a lot of mistakes before getting hurt. In daily driving, this is great.

The more I drive, the more I believe my next weekend fun car will be vintage. I love Dinos, and I like early 911s. Drivers still had to be better than cars at the time, and the relationship between engine and driving dynamics was clearer -- because the cars didn't weigh 4000 lbs. In a way, I think the Lotus Elise is the last pure sports car you can buy now, while heavy gadget-laden computerized rides like the BMW 6 show how far off-course we are -- for sport driving (for a daily driver, I'd bet a BMW 6 would be fast, comfy and safe).

 

I would say that there are a few exceptions to that, the Viper and
Elise being the two most obvious examples.

 

The Lotus Elise/Exige is one of the more pure sports cars but the PUREST is the Ariel Atom- check it out. I want one!!! :-D

 

A car can be too good - relative to the owner.
There are some people who just don't deserve what they have. Others that don't have what they deserve.

 

Yep easily. Nearly all modern cars are far, far too good for what is legal on the road. This is the problem, not driver ability. The cars are so competant that you can't get anywhere near the edge unless you're doing stupid speeds. You can still get a fair bit of throttle stomping low speed fun if the electronics allow it, but you can't get on the edge unless you track the car.

To be brutally honest I laugh myself stupid driving my little old Lotus Elan, it's got ridiculously narrow tyres, 700kg and nearly 140 bhp and I can throw it sideways at nearly any speed without fear of killing myself or anyone else on the road.

I stopped buying new cars (sports cars) about a year ago, got totally disillusioned with them. I drive a new one to work every day, and that's fine for what it is - transport, but for fun, there's a lot more to be had with the old classics. Especially if you enjoy wielding a spanner!

The fact my last car could do 180 mph and 0-60 in 4.6 seconds is all well and good but to do that on a public road will end up in a prison sentence. That, is the problem.

 

I was going to say the exact same thing about the NSX. In fact, when it first came out, the auto magazine reporters said the same thing.

Having said that, the 360 is, in my opinion, the perfect car. I have more fun in this thing than I have ever had in any car! Maybe a bit more acceleration would be nice, but other than that, it is pure sex on wheels.

 

What you are discussing is exactly why I do not own or drive modern cars.

They ARE too good. They are so good that all the character has been sucked out of them. Thus to a degree you have the same highly capable, VERY highly insulated driving experience no matter what the car. Boring if you ask me.

I had a 2001 Boxster S that was a fantastic car. Incredibly fast, handled great, everything worked perfect..... and after a couple of weeks I was bored stiff with it. Same for just about every other modern car I have ever driven.

Modern cars simply cannot be pushed anywhere near their limit on public roads. And on the track even 99% of owners/drivers are not capable of pushing the car to anywhere near its limits before they reach their own. This doesnt mean they dont go fast... they do. Heck, with modern cars Grandma could drive them fast as the computers do all the stuff we used to call "driving".

I have a Daytona, '69 911S and '65 Jag E-Type. They are not only plenty fast, but totally engaging to drive. You will NOT get bored driving cars like these! And they are fast... I have taken the little 2.5 liter 911S to FCA track days and nobody ran away from it.

For me, there is no comparison. I like cars that "I" drive... not that the damn computer drives. You can have your computer shifting F1 transmission and such, I'll stick with double clutch downshifts and V12 engines sucking through 12 weber stacks!




Terry

 

I definitely agree about the NSX; great driving car but so dang boring...especially after driving the 360. The Ferrari is truly a much more enjoyable experience. I also think that the 360 strikes a great balance between safety and driver involvement.

 

I like gadgets and technology but I still prefer old porsche's.

 

It's too bad you never got over 2500 rpm in the TR. It can be QUITE ballsy.

12 cylinders baby ...

 

I had a very eye-opening experience when I was taken for a ride in my friend's MG Midget. The car can do 75mph with a stiff tail wind, but will happily drive sideways at any speed over 5mph all day without a hint of getting out of control. The sensation of speed was amazing and I need to go twice as fast to get half the thrill in my S2000.

In an article in evo magazine, Nick Mason (no explainatin needed) meantioned in refernce to modern day supercars that it is better to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.

Apart from the machismo test of stop light drag races and highway from-a-roll races, these cars today are all needlessly powerfull and lifelessly boring. Ferrari's trump card is that it does offer some vercerial thrills that can be enjoyed at any speed-- the sights and sounds of it all. Corvette and Porsche are lacking in this character and left to make up the difference with luxo-gadgets.

 

Absolutely... I have a '79 308GT4 and a '96 Corvette with the LT4 motor and some mods - makes around 385HP/Tq. While the Vette can deliver neck-snapping torque and is an absolute blast to drive, it's not the same as the Ferrari. I'd be lucky if the Ferrari is pushing 205HP, yet around town, it's WAY more fun. If I put my foot in the Vette, before long I'm doubling the speedlimit, and not long after that, I'm in triple digits. I can flog the GT4 to what seems like no end without attaining crazy speeds, yet I get to hear the car's upper RPM range for extended periods of time. I imagine the difference between the even NEWER cars (997, new Z06, etc.) is even more exaggerated, and thus less fun.

One of the most exhilirating rides I ever went on was with one of my wife's law school classmates. He drives a '78 Porsche with 230k miles on it. He took turns, on-ramps, and off-ramps at ten-tenths in that thing, and I nearly s**t myself! UN-BeLIEVEable.... All from a 28 year old, tired, Pcar - right.

What's the old saying?

"It's better to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow."

 

I bought a 996TT this spring for several reasons, but mainly because I just got frustrated looking for the right 328 to come along and wanted a sports car. It's a great car - very fast, comfortable, great air conditioning and sound system, bulletproof and easily driven daily. If that fits your needs then great.

But I previously had an old 911 sunroof coupe and maybe it was because I was younger or something but I miss it. Or maybe because it was just more fun. I agree with the it's more entertaining to drive a slower car fast statement. The TT is so fast if you punch it out of the I-pass you're at 100 mph in a heatbeat and have only begun before you just have to shut it down.

I like the car but I know now it will be gone in a year or two and an Fcar will be in it's place. It's not the outright speed I'm looking for it's the viceral thrill of the thing that counts. And the Porche just doesn't have that.

You can equate it to airplanes - it's why people buy Stearmans instead of Mooney's, even thou they are newer, faster and more reliable. You just can't beat the open air cockpit and the big ole radial up front.

 

The thing about the new cars is they are just SO dang powerful that you'd wreck them if they didn't have traction control, power this and that, etc. unless you're a seriously experienced racer. If my car did modern Ferrari speeds it would take a Schumacher to keep it on the road. Modern Ferraris are easy to drive out of necessity, but at legal speeds this translates to a muted experience.

Ken

 

i have had eleven 911's, starting with a 1971...each new car was conspicuously better than the last, but a strange thing happened when i got to the 993s...i slowly stopped being in love with them...

i fondly remembered my older 911's but it didn't really occur to me until the 996's, that the cars had evolved into something totally unloveable...tremendously competent, but i found i was no longer looking forward to my daily drive...

then a curious thing happened; a friend let me drive his 328...suddenly all the old things i loved about driving came rushing back to me...the engine sound, the way the car communicated everything through the steering wheel and the seat...a car that actually let me slide it at non-insane speeds...

i was smitten...went out and immediately sold my current 911 turbo and bought a 328...now i just smile at my friends when they tell me about the latest dsi or smg thingy on their new porsche...they wouldn't understand anyway...

 

ha!, i thought i was the only one left who still did that! cool. i have to agree with most people here, classics are a much more involving drive, and consequently, more enjoyable as sports cars. on my daily commute, though, i sure do love modern amenities. but i think that classics have the same problem as moderns on public roads. it's still hard to extract the most out of them. whether it is a 996 911 or a 308, getting to their limits is pretty dangerous. here in northern va, i can't do much with my 308, too much traffic, pedestrians, people driving slooow--for sports cars, old and new, the track is the best place to go for spirited driving.

john

 

My sweet thing is only a 550

Without the computer, which helps me drive the beast, I would never get out of first gear. The machine is faster than a long time driver can handle. No, I have never driven on a real track.

There are three controls on the dash: normal, sports, & off. My choice is normal. Why you may ask?

When it is in normal, my abilities are able to drive it. When an urgent situation happens, I need to have the car slower than me. Sometimes I have switched it to sport. This is OK most of the time.

The few instances where I stupidly put it into off, I get in trouble. Trouble means I may do very bad things to others as well as myself. This is not good.

Therefore, I believe the computer helps me drive the finest vehicle of the twentieth century to the limits of my ability. I also thing 99.99999% of we humans cannot take the 550 to its limits. Mr. Schumacher can.

 

I went driving all over town yesterday, back and forth, up and down, past the lake, put about 75 miles of in town driving on the lil beast. I never got it up over 50 mph. Its got the WRONG carbs on it, probably to small of progression holes, but I have it jetted the same as everyone says I should (135/f36/200/60). So anyway it kinda gurgles and pops off throttle, and it just sounds fricken evil. You step on the "gas" and it snarls and gurgles and hauls a$$. Kids heads spin at the sound, even if they didnt see the car first. Its just a riot. I think it makes as much noise out the intake vent in the door as the muffler does, and its lovely. My wife even said she dont mind it. The steering is tight, like the wheels are connected with heavy guitar strings. I havnt driven a car with steering that tight in such a very long time. At first you think something is wrong with the car. Every crack and pebble in the road is "felt" through the steering, and it freaks you out and you hold on to it tighter. But that only makes you want to crank it harder through turns, so its a payoff of sorts. Its the kind of car I wanted as a kid. Its the kind of car I havnt driven in over 20 years. It has almost no creature comforts, everything is manual save the windows. But it makes you smile and laugh. Every turn, every push of the throttle, the car is connected to YOU, not the other way round. And driving it takes learning it because the car is so responsive and everything is direct and positive. The shifter will not allow you to shift it without forethought, or it will will reward you with malice. You must THINK before you shift, not blindly poke at gears like a Honduh or a Porsche. Drive it correctly and your rewarded with joy. Oh man, the JOY. Drive it with your head up your a$$ and your rewarded with defeat and a car that seems impossible to make you happy. I cant imagine very many cars built in the last 50 years that can return that kind of pleasure. And here is the deal....

I started wrenching on cars before I was 15 years old. I liked getting filthy dirty and covered with black grease from head to foot. It seemed like a contest to see not only how fast we could swap out motors or transmissions, but also what other trouble we could cause. Could we stuff that greasy Buick 455 slug into that Chevelle? Could we put that 12 bolt posi from that Impala into this Pontiac? Make it fit. Many times crude, still greasy engines that burned oil were transplanted and given new life. By 17 I was tuning the carbs on my MG, setting valve clearance's, etc., and liking clean motors and clean cars a lot more than filthy ones. Many of you have a great deal of money and just go plunk down prodigous amounts to buy whatever stirs your soul. I don't, maybe never will. I have over two years of work and money into just trying to own a 308 and be able to drive it. But I couldnt "just" make it run, I had to tear into it repeatedly to make sure things were right. And its still not right. This car I am playing with was probably destined for parts. I bought it for parts. It was sold pretty much as a parts car. But I resurected it. I started swapping parts over from the first car to make it safe and roadworthy, but not restored. I simply started repairing 30 years of neglect. I now believe the car probably really does only have 44K miles, it had just never been serviced, or cleaned, or taken very good care of. Rolled up hard and put away wet. But its MINE. I have cut my fingers and arms, gotten grease packed into my nail beds, and strained my back working over it. Almost three months now of this BS and finally 30 years of wanting has become reality. It runs. I can fire it up and go drive it right now, and all the pain and effort is worth every freaking minute. The neighbor across the road owns a 930 Turbo. He cant even drive the damn thing, always clunks into second because he cant drive a stick. His car is probably worth a lot more, but I would never want one. It has no soul. The P car is like a great white shark with black lifeless eyes. The 308 is like Luigi in the "Cars" movie. Fun and full of life.

 

I agree with comments about the NSX. It's fundamentally a terrific car -- well-balanced, fast (though could use a hp boost), excellent transmission, nice targa top. It has no raw edges, and thus the problem. It was too stable, too predictable, too under control. It seemed to lack a soul. Kinda hard to blame the engineers; they certainly did a great job. Hard to blame the designers -- they created an innovative body in 1990 that still looks pretty darn good today. But I eventually had to trade to a Ferrari 360 because I got bored with the NSX.

 

I learned to drive on a 1976 Fiat 131-my first car. It was slow but I had fun with it-great car to learn on. It didn't have power steering-and I LOVE the feel of unassisted rack and pinion steering. My '82 911 has no p/s and I love feeling every surface change on the road.

Last month I picked up a 3 Series RWD; love the car although the steering is nice, it is nowhere near as sweet as the P-car's but I still love the handling/balance/feel of RWD.

My point: I like mid 80s Ferraris and Porsches; wouldn't mind driving a Lotus Esprit SE either. The newer cars are astonishingly capable but they do lack appeal for me. I wish the current Lotus Elise had the Honda 2.4 in it, or better yet, the new RDX turbo motor.....