car design thread

John,

Was that open top tape drawing part of a Fiero/Saturn division Fiero program?

Jeff

 

What size were these on the drawings, btw? 18"? The look huge!

I might sound strange, but how would you describe the feel of the car that would sell well in the 80s? I mean, they sometimes look boxy, angular from now. (Not your designs, but you know.)
What was the feel flowing around car design studios?

 

Those were truly awful cars...

They did save Chrysler, though... sold tons of them.

Paid back the loan guarantee early.

Modified to 'invent' the Minivan... strecthed to become things like the Chrysler New Yorker... one platform fits all.

 

I will expand further on the late 1970 and early 1980s design idiom. First recognize that the lead time on the design was on the order of 5 years. In the summer of 1977 Chrysler's 1980s were in finalization.

Where the designers were looking and getting excited were Giugaro's work that was very angular. It was a repudiation of fat cross sections and heavy sculpturing. The untrained eye didn't always grasp how much plan view tapering and cross section work was in those "flat" surfaces. Bertone was doing some interesting show cars within the idiom. Pininfarina never went to the extreme of the idiom as they always retained more curvature.

But by the late 1970s it was evident where the next idiom was going to be. Giugaro's Medusa portended the way. It would take time for the new curvier to find production. Management wasn't nearly as prepared to approve the new direction as the designers were. The first significant player was the Audi 5000. The Ford Taurus definitely moved the idiom into mass market.

What Chrysler did under Tom Gale was absolutely amazing. Here was an operation that had stood on the sidelines watching the design world pass it by. Do not think for a minute that this was because of any lack of talent in the design studios. Their problem was that the worst choices were habitually being selected by the management.

Chrysler were from badly copying Ford to the clear American design leader. It wasn't just the show cars either, they were getting good design through management approval.

 

I asked about it in the American muscle category but didn't get any comment from car designers. This was the Corvette designed by an American in Wisconsin, Gordon Kelly, who had Vignale build it.

Here's a video
[VIDEO] Amazing Kelly Corvette is a European Coachbuilt 1961 Corvette - Corvette: Sales, News & Lifestyle

Now I remember seeing the car in pictures in 1961 and was doubly impressed seeing it in person recently at Art Center concours. But what I want to know is:

Gordon Kelly was a designer for Brooks Stevens.
Question 1: Was he doing this so Brooks would recognize his talent and give him more car design work? It seems to me he was taking a chance on showing up the boss.

Question 2: Did he get any more jobs as a car designer as a result of his effort?

I know of one example where a car designer did a car on his own nickel to show what he could do. That was Bill Mitchell and the XP700, and Harley Earl, his boss, took the car in house and refined it (making it an official GM show car) and later Mitchell inherited Earl's job. So that time it worked to propel Mitchell's career but it seems that was not so with Kelly.
Also the owner showing the car at Art Center was John Breslow. Is he a famous collector (I think he also owns an XKSS). Is he the person the Kelly family sold the car to? Was the price ever mentioned? (By today's prices it would cost $250K to a million to make the same body of aluminum).
How do you value a car like that? It wasn't commissioned by any automaker in 1961, it wasn't even Vignale selecting to do it as their own show car, and Kelly came to them with the design already drawn, though they did show it in their booth at a major salon.It's no doubt historical but I can't fathom how you affix a value , that would reflect its different status from say, some Corvette customized by domestic coachbuilder George Barris in '61.

 

You could argue that the sedanca de ville (where the driver's seat and front passenger seat can be opened completely) has been back in recent years (Toyota Supra?) but one style that automakers stubbornly refuse to bring back is the landaulet where the front seat is covered with steel and only the rear compartment is completely open via a fold down roof. I think this style reeks luxury! You feel like John D. Rockefeller riding in back and feel obligated to throw times to the peasants! Nissan made an Infiniti landaulet expressly for some wedding in Monaco but that's the only recent attempt unless you count the Maybach which I consider not a real landaulet (because of fixed window frames in the rear) and was overpriced at $700,000 each. I think if Cadillac really wanted to make a definitive we-are-the-king-of-luxury cars statement they should bring it back.

You want to see the ultimate one, see Father Devine's Duesy landaulette. When he had the top down he could seat nine in the rear seat!

 

Wow, things were pretty flat in Italy. I know that certain flatness isn't as easy to achieve as it looks. I was into 3D car modeling in my early years, I started with 90s models (particularly, Mitsubishi FTO GX, which I've found strange and fascinating at the time).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjk2U0Yw1bo
(FTO isn't pretty in the pics and videos, however, it's got some dramatic lines. In reality it looked something out of this world for me at the time. The rear is very special. Just as the hood with curvy "echoes" from the arches. I like the shape of the taillights. All in all, this car is like a bunch of good ideas, that don't really mix together well. Front and rear wheel arches are very different in design and don't work much. )

After that one I thought 70s were simpler in the shape, but not really. Although there were some bulky parts, catching that flatness wasn't easy, if you're an idealist.
As a designer student I was given a task to model an existing design in SolidWorks. I picked up a Bertone-Lamborghini Bravo for fun (thinking it should be a piece of cake), and after few days I quickly ascended to the '71 Countach LP500S prototype finding it a lot easier to understand and work on. You really learn the design when you re-create it once again. (I think that certain early prototype is very different to production Countach and especially later ones in the appeal. It's elegant and sweet, not brutal. A man who saw the 70s supercar market said to me that people had not been ready to accept the design of Countach, so it kinda failed, right until the big wheel arches were attached under Walter Wolf's program. It was too pure in design to sell well.)

Audi 5000 (and its more basic Audi 100 C3 counterpart) were cool. The USA DOT rectangular quad headlights were always cool, they made all great designs look even meaner. The big 80s Audis got nicknamed "cigars" here, for the looks. (Although you probably had to look like detective Magnum to be as cool as your 5000.)

It's strange that it was ItalDesign Medusa that gave the boost to the late 80s concepts.
G. Giugiaro for Bilumen - Medusa lamp - Catawiki
Btw, here's a 1980 lamp designed by Giugiaro as well. It probably started with the lamp, as this one is more Medusa than the other.

Late 80s/Early 90s Chrysler concepts remind me 1989 Isuzu-Lotus 4200R concept (again).
1989 Isuzu 4200R - Concepts
I've digged it a little, it's actually Julian Thomson from Lotus, who did the design. (Simon Cox was nearby) Later he designed the Lotus Elise. He's in Jaguar/Land Rover now. Came across that interview:
An Interview with once Lotus Head of Design ? Julian Thomson ? Lotus Drivers Club

Guess not!
In June 2015, he twitted the attached drawings, saying "Sketches of the Super Elise I hope to build soon".
The curvuature looks a little 911-ish, hope he makes it more special.

P.S. I'd say, from all things that Lee Iacocca led, Mustang II design was a lot worse than the whole K-car program. It was like "that beaten dead horse" of design. There was a local guy who painted it red and put 18" wire wheels (super flat, no deep offset), finally making even more awful.
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Yeah, I guess the 70s Ferraris were a little old fashioned until Leonardo Fioravanti got to design his legendary small Ferraris.
I love Giugiaro's works, I studied them all. But I don't have as favourite car out of Giugiaro's range as much as I love Fioravanti's 288 GTO, by design alone.
BMW M1 would be close, Nazca C2 - yes, absolutely, but it's Giugiaro's son who did the design, not the maestro.

(Should I mention I love 3 gen Camaros outside as well, a friend of mine presented me an Alabama plate for a 3 gen Camaro I'd buy once. Something like a bone stock '85 IROC-Z, black with those goldish decals. No need to change anything.)

That 80s bumper thing was sometimes odd, but, for example, in 81-85 Celica's design the huge long rear bumper of the hatchback did quite fit the design. If you'd make it shorter, that may ruin the balance of the design it gives. At least, it would be not that dramatic. The bumper length is so odd, kids could jump and walk on it, haha.
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The original US bumper standards were particularly onerous. There was a diagonal corner requirement and something of a no damage to even trim. Vertical height meant 16" - 20" for the surface.

An advancement in dealing with the issue came when folks determined that when put behind a flexible nose or tail the bumper area did not have to match the design lines.

The standards were changed over time.

The 3rd generation Camaro. Another great design of Jerry Palmer. The guy that deserved to have been the 5th VP of GM Design; another board room wiff.

 

Just like in post 3563 with the Countach the Italians seemed to be a little hesitant about these new design directions. Some useful distractions seemed to always be present...
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Jim Hall was a bright light from Motor Trend that went to work for a engineer at GM Research in Warren MI for Don Runkle, a chief engineer whose job it was to think up new cars for coming markets. Don't know when that was, maybe mid-'70s? Anyway Jim Hall bought a BMW Z1. I understand that is pretty rare on the ground in the US. I wonder if it was brought into the U.S. as a GM research vehicle and then sold to him? Those GM research foreign cars (which go back to Mangusta, Porsche 904GTS, GT40, etc.) often got sold or maybe still are sold, to the public. I could write up something about the Z1's prospects as an investment if I knew how that one got into the US. and if they are salable in the U.S. "as is" or have to be DOT'd, EPA-d, and such (where are those conversion shops that used to be on every corner?)

By the way Jalopnik says they are now worth$100K but that car is over in the UK

(see story here)
Someone Is Selling A Brand New 1990 BMW Z1

 

He who has "juiced" his Art Center attendance! At least he never claimed a degree but a 1 term reality does not equal his claimed version.

 

I've found some concept cars from Bertone collection, but I've never seen any of these!
What about you?
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I always liked the cool but strange Corvette Ramarro when it came out. I think it was even in Automobile year back in the 1990's.