News

car design thread

Discussion in 'Creative Arts' started by jm2, Oct 19, 2012.

  1. tritone

    tritone F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 8, 2003
    5,335
    On the Rock
    Full Name:
    James
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    13,661
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    HotShoe and tritone like this.
  4. Peter Tabmow

    Peter Tabmow Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2010
    455
    330 4HL, anunakki, tritone and 2 others like this.
  5. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    13,661
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    You’re right, I should have remembered that version. I stand corrected!:eek:
     
  6. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Moderator
    Moderator

    Oct 1, 2008
    32,398
    Huntsville, AL., USA
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    The front end on an air-cooled 911 can already go a bit light from time to time. I wonder what it'd be like with that huge wing and longtail structure on the back. :eek:

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
    330 4HL likes this.
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. 330 4HL

    330 4HL Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    May 12, 2005
    1,016
    Vancouver
    Full Name:
    Rick Bradner
    Yeah, give the downforce leverage on the car from that wing, I wonder how they generated enough on the front to keep in on the ground...
     
    NeuroBeaker likes this.
  9. Peter Tabmow

    Peter Tabmow Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2010
    455
    Moby Dick was water-cooled – as you'd expect with a nickname like that!
     
    NeuroBeaker and of2worlds like this.
  10. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    13,661
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
  11. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    13,661
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    I couldn't resist posting The Autoextremist colum today concerning BMW's fortunes.
    . It has as much to do with design as anything. Skip to the last several paragraphs if design is your interest.
    THE AUTOEXTREMIST - RANTS
    AN ENTIRELY NEW DIMENSION OF ABJECT STUPIDITY BROUGHT TO YOU BY BMW.

    [​IMG]MONDAY, JANUARY 18, 2021 AT 10:29AM
    By Peter M. DeLorenzo

    Detroit. Readers of this column know that I have been documenting BMW’s excruciating slide to oblivion for many years now. Once the little German auto company that could – defined by its crisp sports sedans that were unlike anything else on the road – BMW has transformed itself into a purveyor of bloated, overwrought SUVs, porky sedans and some of the most hideous looking vehicles on the road.

    What the hell happened?

    Was it the pressure of trying to compete with its traditional rival, Mercedes-Benz? After all, these two manufacturers egged each other on to chase new segments – both real and imagined – to their everlasting detriment. Was it the fear of trying to remain an independent car company? This led to insane volume targets and the absurd notion that they could actually place a BMW in every garage in America. Or, was it a measure of hubris and delusional thinking that was exponentially more virulent than any found in the Motor City? The first two points I mentioned had a bit to do with BMW’s fall, but it is my last point that is directly responsible for most of it.

    How else can you explain the abject stupidity polluting the social media landscape BMW has been responsible for of late? BMW operatives have decided to take the brilliant marketing approach of insulting their older buyers – you know, the ones who put and have kept BMW on the map – by suggesting they are out of touch and not worth keeping around anyway. And when those buyers registered their unhappiness with BMW’s marketing approach, company marketers responded with the now comical “Ok, Boomer.” Which, naturally, unleashed a furious torrent of derision aimed at BMW, and deservedly so.

    But that monumentally misguided waste of time brought to life by BMW marketers was only setting the table for an even more egregious mistake: a remarkably insulting and flat-out stupid video that BMW operatives had the temerity to unveil at the recently completed CES. You can watch it here, but I warn you that you won’t get through it without a few well-placed "WTFs?" and "OMGs!"

    Where do I begin? It insults BMW’s current customer base in such a way that I wouldn’t be surprised if a large percentage of those buyers, after seeing it, never darken another BMW showroom again. As if that weren’t enough, it insults older buyers – again, BMW’s bread and butter – to such a degree that it is almost beyond comprehension. After watching this unmitigated ******** – the video goes on for an excruciating four minutes – it is clear to me that in their quest to send the message that BMW is no longer interested in buyers over 40, or anyone saddled with an “old” ICE-powered BMW, BMW operatives have managed to declare to the world that they are not only wildly out of touch with reality, but that they’re too stupid to understand why anyone who sees this video would have the temerity to react negatively.

    It is not uncommon for automotive marketers to get lost in the dulcet tones of their own thought balloons, but the level of grandiose delusion and unfettered hubris on display here defies all rational thinking. And, to make matters worse, BMW operatives have assumed the attitude that they can’t help it if we’re all too stupid to see “brilliance” when it is presented to us. That’s the hoary, “you’re just not hip enough to understand” chestnut that automotive marketing (and design) types trot out when it suits them. Translation? “We know what’s right and righteous, and you don’t. So, get over it.”

    The people involved in this insulting fiasco should be terminated immediately. And that includes all the way up the food chain to the top executives who actually sat in a conference room and pronounced it “good.” To say that BMW has completely lost it was news maybe ten years ago. This? This is an entirely new dimension of abject stupidity.

    But before I close this week, I need to return to the earlier mention that BMW is responsible for some of the most hideous looking vehicles on the road. Feast your eyes on the monstrosity below.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login C

    (BMW)

    This is the BMW iX. And this is what BMW PR minions have to say about it: "A vision is turning into reality, as the BMW Vision iNEXT becomes the BMW iX. With time still to go before its expected U.S. market launch in the early 2022 and with the series development phase ongoing, BMW is providing a first look ahead at the future BMW iX. The BMW iX is the first model based on a new, modular, scalable architecture on which the future of the BMW Group will be built. Conceived from the outset as purely electric mobility, the iX sees BMW redefining the successful Sports Activity Vehicle (SAV) concept. The BMW iX has been created to provide something beyond just mobility – an exhilarating driving experience combined with a sense of well-being for both drivers and passengers all the while enjoying the journey with safety, security, and a new form of luxury in the process."

    My response? I have been in and around this business for a very long time. And I can deduce when a product is so far off of the mark that it will be sales-proof the moment it hits dealer showrooms. This is one of those times. This rolling monument to mediocrity is an example of design hubris the likes of which we haven't seen since the Edsel. This mobile atrocity sends the convincing message that BMW is fully intent on becoming an also-ran car company going forward. Irrelevant and offensive are not exactly the words marketing campaigns are based on. What a frickin' joke.

    So here we are. BMW’s stunning pirouette into mediocrity continues. And BMW operatives are seemingly hell-bent on running the whole enterprise into the ground, while telling us were just not hip enough to understand.

    Nicely done, you unmitigated hacks.
     
    Dolcevita, 330 4HL, JCR and 4 others like this.
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    13,661
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    This on e actually made me LOL. Mr. Sketchmonkey turns a Ford F-150 into a sedan! :rolleyes:
     
  14. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    13,661
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john

    • Stellantis, the new automotive group officially born on 16 January 2021 from the merger of Psa and Fiat Chrysler, has announced new appointments and changes to the group’s global design responsibilities. Ralph Gilles, former head of global design of the Fiat Chrysler group since 2015, will be the global head of styling for Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram, Maserati and Fiat (Latin America region). Jean-Pierre Ploue, former head of global design for the entire Psa Group, will be responsible for Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Citroen, DS, Fiat (Europe), Lancia, Opel, Peugeot and Vauxhall.

      Image Unavailable, Please Login
      Image Unavailable, Please Login
      “We will ensure an independent and absolutely recognisable stylistic identity to each brand’s product, but at the same time we will benefit greatly from the synergies of sharing platforms and parts for all 14 Stellantis brands,” commented CEO Carlos Tavares.
     
    330 4HL likes this.
  15. Qvb

    Qvb Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2003
    2,333
    Newport Beach Ca.
    Full Name:
    John Dixon
    I would like your post but I can't cause "Stellantis". Where did that name come from?
     
    jm2 likes this.
  16. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    13,661
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    Too hilarious not to post today's WSJ article

    Combine Chrysler, Fiat, Peugeot and You Get Stellantis. Stella-What?
    Three storied auto makers start trading with a new name. It’ll probably grow on you.


    Some critics of the new auto company’s name, Stellantis, say it is more evocative of a prescription drug than anything on wheels.
    PHOTO: MASSIMO PINCA/REUTERS

    The combined businesses of Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV and Peugeot maker PSA Group made a debut on the Paris and Milan stock exchanges Monday and will start trading Tuesday on the New York Stock Exchange under the name Stellantis.

    Stella-what?

    The new name has puzzled car-industry experts, dealers and customers since its July unveiling. Why not one or several of the group’s brands, like Jeep, Dodge, Alfa Romeo and Maserati?

    NEWSLETTER SIGN-UP
    Notes on the News
    Today’s headlines, news in context, and good reads you may have missed, with Tyler Blint-Welsh.


    SUBSCRIBE
    The name rang like “a product to ease stomach pain,” wrote the car columnist for The Australian newspaper. An Automotive News story about the unveiling carried the headline: “Take 2 Stellantis and call me in the morning.”


    Luis Guzman, based in Austin, Texas, drives a sporty 2016 Chrysler 300S and said he is embarrassed by the name: “I love the car and hate the fact that [Chrysler] is going to be owned by a company called Stellantis.”

    Fiat Chrysler and PSA said Stellantis draws on the Latin “stello,” meaning “to brighten with stars.” The Latin root reflects the combined companies’ French and Italian heritage. The name also signifies the “creation of one of the new leaders in the next era of mobility,” the companies said.

    “Our thought process was really very simple,” said Mike Manley, former chief executive of Fiat Chrysler, who will lead the new group’s Americas operations. “We have a stable of some fantastic, storied historic brands. We knew from the beginning that we didn’t want to use those brand names as our corporate name.”

    Fiats, Chryslers and Peugeots Over the Decades
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login


    The Chrysler Valiant Premium Station Wagon at the London Motor Show in 1966.
    MIRRORPIX/GETTY IMAGES
    1 of 13
    •••••
    Pierre-Olivier Salmon, head of corporate information at PSA, said “We are very, very happy and proud of this name, which already unites us,” declining to discuss the name in detail.

    “People don’t know what Stellantis is,” said Jeremy Beaver, president of Del Grande Dealer Group in California, “but this company has changed its name so many times I don’t think it matters to the average customer.”

    SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS
    What names can you suggest as alternatives to Stellantis? Join the conversation below.

    One advantage to a new name: It avoids disputes about who goes first—something that dogged the 1998 merger of Daimler and Chrysler.

    Chrysler’s then-chairman, Robert Eaton, told The Wall Street Journal at the time that the name was the last issue to be discussed before the boards signed off. Daimler’s then-chairman, Jürgen Schrempp, had argued that the names of founders Gottlieb Daimler and Carl Benz had to be first, proposing Daimler-Benz Chrysler. Mr. Eaton countered that Walter P. Chrysler had founded their company and was an American pioneer. His name had to go first: Chrysler Daimler-Benz.

    Mr. Schrempp told the Journal at the time that he and Mr. Eaton never considered compromising by creating a name unrelated to their heritage.

    For centuries, company names have reflected their founders ( Walt Disney Co. ), products (Coca-Cola Co. ), industries ( General Electric Co. ) or, sometimes, birthplace ( Cisco SystemsInc. ).

    Fiat Chrysler combines Fiat, which Giovanni Agnelli founded in 1899 as Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino, and Chrysler, which Mr. Chrysler founded in 1925. Peugeot was created in 1882 when Armand Peugeot broke from the family’s business making bicycles and coffee grinders to bet on the horseless carriage.

    Like baby-naming, company-naming has tracked fashion recently. Hip businesses deploy made-up names (Google), sometimes using a made-up verb (Spotify) or adverb (Wonderly), or a prefix (Uber). Rarely do these names betray what the companies do.

    In 2001, Andersen Consulting sparked confusion and hilarity when it renamed itself Accenture—officially a contraction of “Accent on the future.” The name became widely recognized.

    Mondelez, the name Kraft Foods gave its snacks business in a 2012 spinoff, combined “monde,” derived from the Latin for “world,” and “delez,” a “fanciful expression of ‘delicious,’ ” according to executives.

    MORE ON STELLANTIS


    Then-Mondelez board member Nelson Peltz said at a conference the following year that the name “sounds like a disease.”

    Still, “Mondelez just became accepted after a while,” said Erika Troia, senior naming strategist at naming agency PS212. With most new names, she said, “After the initial confusion, it ends up coming to a place of acceptance.”

    Except when it doesn’t, as with Tronc. WhenTribune Publishing Co. , owner of newspapers including the Chicago Tribune and the New York Daily News, renamed itself Tronc Inc. in 2016, executives said it was short for Tribune Online Content and a banner for its digital future. Some other people said it sounded like nonsense.

    The company became Tribune Publishing again two years later.

    “The way that words hit our ears affects what we think of them,” Ms. Troia said. “Tronc just has a really unfortunate sound to it.”

    One reason to invent names is avoiding trademarks. “Finding something that’s protectable and available hasn’t trumped everything, but it has become a major part of the process,” Jane Geraghty, Global Chief Executive at Landor & Fitch, a branding agency owned by WPPPLC.

    “In the old days we could come up with a relatively short list of names that would fit the story that we wanted to tell,” she said. “Now we have to generate thousands of names in the process to find, ultimately, a solution that you’re going to be able to trademark.”

    The auto industry is going through a rebranding and renaming phase that largely reflects its move to clean electric vehicles. South Korea’s Kia dropped “Motors” from its name last week, saying it was revamping its brand to further its “vision to create sustainable mobility solutions.”

    General Motors Co. has called its battery company Ultium, prompting Morgan Stanley analyst Adam Jonas to ask GM CEO Mary Barra during a July earnings call: “Why not call the company Ultium, the entire company?” Ms. Barra replied that GM was willing to entertain any idea that benefited shareholders.

    As Mr. Manley, who will lead Stellantis’s Americas operations, put it in July: “I have to tell you that the naming of a new company is—there’s no doubt—it’s a process for sure.”

    There was poetry in Stellantis, he said, “and I’m not a particularly poetic person.”

    Write to William Boston at william.boston@wsj.com, Nat Ives at nat.ives@wsj.com and Nora Naughton at Nora.Naughton@wsj.com

    Corrections & Amplifications
    Luis Guzman drives a 2016 Chrysler 300S. A previous version of this article story incorrectly said he drove a 300M sedan from the early 2000s. (Corrected on Jan. 18, 2021)

    Copyright ©2020 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 87990cbe856818d5eddac44c7b1cdeb8

    Appeared in the January 19, 2021, print edition as 'Fiat+Chrysler +Peugeot = Stella-What?.'
     
    Qvb likes this.
  17. Qvb

    Qvb Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2003
    2,333
    Newport Beach Ca.
    Full Name:
    John Dixon
    The lost cars of Stellantis
     
    330 4HL, energy88 and jm2 like this.
  18. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2007
    8,036
    Chicago USA
    Full Name:
    Tom Tanner
    I have a bad feeling about Stellantis. Alfa and Maserati might be in trouble if they favor and try to bring up the French cars. Peugeot already has Lemans because "they are already there". Who cares about those now pathetic almost generic but once great French brands that were long ago ruined by these people. Now what has been done in the last 10-15 years with Alfa and Maserati will be value engineered out.
     
    330 4HL and jm2 like this.
  19. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    13,661
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    As far as I can tell you can kiss Alfa & Maserati good bye.
    My guess is it will be a slow painful death rather than a swift demise. But that”s just me.
     
    F1tommy and tritone like this.
  20. Peter Tabmow

    Peter Tabmow Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2010
    455
    As hinted at by the author, it will drive the results unless the designer has been trained in the history of the techniques used in their discipline. When I was a graphic design MFA student, we studied and practiced (in order) calligraphy, letterpress, hot metal type, and photosetting before we got anywhere near digital type. We were able to understand the foundation on which each new tool was built and appreciate not only what was better but what we had to preserve from the old methods. In car design terms, this is why clay (insufficiently considered in the article) remains important in the age of CAD – it still does things CAD cannot and probably always will. Designers who don't go through this process are prone to producing work that violates the golden rule of design (and lots of other things in life) – just because you can do something doesn't mean you should – and fails to connect in terms of cohesion and vision. The author's prescription at the end to mix up the tool set will work best when the designer has had proper exposure to each tool. In my opinion...
     
    330 4HL, anunakki, jm2 and 1 other person like this.
  21. energy88

    energy88 F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 21, 2012
    15,298
    Fredericksburg, VA & Sarasota, FL
    Full Name:
    John
    Qvb likes this.
  22. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    13,661
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    Well said.

    Design Education today is a hit & miss proposition with which tools/techniques are utilized. Some schools have eschewed clay for pure digital. And even the schools that have the ability of doing clay have left it up to the student whether to use digital or clay. Just like full size tape drawings have gone away, the methods used to design exteriors keeps evolving. Cant stop the march of progress. I personally believe some of the subtleties and nuances have been sacrificed with some of the new processes. But maybe as these tools develop, those nuances may make a comeback.

    Whether this is a good thing or not is up to you.
     
    anunakki likes this.
  23. tritone

    tritone F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 8, 2003
    5,335
    On the Rock
    Full Name:
    James
    "....I personally believe some of the subtleties and nuances have been sacrificed with some of the new processes..."

    .....cases in point.....:p
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    ingegnere and jm2 like this.
  24. anunakki

    anunakki Five Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Oct 8, 2005
    55,061
    Las Vegas Nevada
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    Very well said.
     
  25. 330 4HL

    330 4HL Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    May 12, 2005
    1,016
    Vancouver
    Full Name:
    Rick Bradner
    I find some of the ideas presented here interesting; particularly the "Londonizing" of the concept. I do miss the country specific "feel" of recent design trends.

    As an aside, the "double ended" design expression of many of these city transport systems expresses the idea of changing direction without "turning". This implies a linear thinking that I don't believe we often consider; "random tramness" if you will...

    https://www.dezeen.com/2021/01/22/new-car-for-london-priestmangoode-autonomous-ride-hailing/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily%20Dezeen&utm_content=Daily%20Dezeen+CID_1ebd695560d046c0b57876c9bd3fa2c9&utm_source=Dezeen%20Mail&utm_term=PriestmanGoode%20models%20autonomous%20taxi%20on%20Londons%20brutalist%20architecture
     
    tritone, anunakki, jm2 and 1 other person like this.
  26. Peter Tabmow

    Peter Tabmow Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2010
    455
    #11448 Peter Tabmow, Jan 23, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
    Subtlety and nuance require restraint and a gimlet eye for analysing your own work. Going back again to my graphic design MFA days, one of my most august teachers was conducting a final critique when he asked why a student had done something. My classmate replied, "I wanted to do something different," to which our (Swiss) professor hilariously responded, "Ja, different, but not better!" I've used that as a litmus test ever since...
     
  27. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    13,661
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    That same response I first heard at Art Center College of Design. A bit different, but essentially the same.
    "Just because something is 'different' doesn't necessarily mean it's good. Walking through the Ritz Carlton with your unit hanging out of your pants is different. That doesn't make it good!"
    Heard that same bromide later in my professional career.
     
    anunakki likes this.
  28. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    13,661
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    What if Carroll Shelby designed the Fox-body Mustang? | Chip Foose Draws A Car


     

Share This Page